Why is the WKBGTA proposing a bag limit of 1 elk or 1 moose not both in BC

[Bugle M In]

Bownut,

No one is trying to put into question "how you hunt" etc.
Seems like you hunt like many of us, and your passionate about hunting like many of us.
We all want to see wildlife "flourish" in the end....we all want to see more game then we have in the future.
The sooner the better.
But "restrictions" is where you are being "criticized".

Example,

I hunt in a small area of R3 for Mulies, usually in the month of November.
Over the past 3-4 years, I have noticed that for the most part, that about 80% of the Does I see have
spring Fawns with them.
So, I go for my stalk, and each time I generally trip up/spot the same amount of deer, year after year.
I walk the same mountain side, and do everything to locate deer.
Now, I thought, hey, 80% of the Does have fawns...should equate to "more deer sightings" next year.
Maybe not a huge difference, in just one year, but, like I said, this 80% is happening for several years, so, by now, there should be a lot more deer in that same area come November......but there's not.

So, what's going on??
LEH for Does has been in effect for a long time, never seemed to be that big of an impact...in my opinion.
The biggest change was the closure of R5 for 10 days in November...I can defiantly see that there was now
"way more hunting pressure" in my area (as I hunt close to R5.....but...I can't really say that a lot more deer
are taken....although you would have to surmise that "there are some more deer taken" in that area, and may not
have been taken if R5 was open.....seems logical.
But in the end, it doesn't appear that it's a ton more deer.
So, I ask....why am I not tripping over more deer? when the doe/fawn ratio seems really, really good in November?

Okay...FN close by, and I know from speaking to a few individuals, they take a good amount....
Seems to be 4-5 deer on average per individual.....which for me, is a little hard to accept.
What I don't know is....is that any different from past years....are they taking more now?
Let's say they aren't...that it has been this way for years.....no change.

Is it poaching?....could be....I see the odd deer down that makes me wonder if it was "accidently shot" or
possibly poached, and just horns or some prime cuts taken?
But, is that any different then in the past??
Let's say it's not.

Logging...well heck.. like one individual said...it used to be you could "shoot across the cutblock"....
but now it takes you 15 minutes to "drive thru it".
That's a big change...definitely changed were the deer walked/migrated thru.....but, for the most part,
it is on the "high plateau" (as I like to call it), which the deer don't really stay on, come snowfall (2 ft +).
So....nothing new there....deer migrate down to where I hunt.
Yes , plenty of "spur roads" off of the main FSR's for sure!, so a bit more "vehicle traffic" in areas that were once
inaccessible....and a bit more opportunity for guys on foot for sure, but I doubt it equates to a ton of success.
But deer definitely get "pushed more" then in the past.

So, I ask...where are these extra deer?
What is going on "after" the hunting season?
Something must be going on? between The end of November of one year, til the next November the following year.
Sounds like hunter success hasn't gone up...about the same as always, maybe even less.

The only ting I can come up with, is maybe it is the fact, that there just isn't "enough habitat to support more deer".
Wolves, and Cougars...they are up, and have an influence on an area that "never had wolves" (not as long as I can
remember), but the studies do seem to say that it is not "predation".
(I may argue that they might be wrong to a degree.....Yellowstone did show the drop in elk after wolf introduction,
and it was noticeable....so, I am not sure where the studies don't see that....)
But again....let's say they are right....so what is the real problem???

I guess what I am saying is....restrictions and closure will not get you anything more then you are already seeing
and experiencing when you are hunting right now.....it won't make a difference.....because "ethical hunting" is not
the problem for the declines you are experiencing.
Yes, you can close off areas, and in the end...you will just sit at home....not hunting...and then you will be disappointed when it doesn't ever open again....because the animals still didn't come back, because it wasn't hunting
that was causing the problem.

Yes, we have to get involved with the FN, and ask for them to "start reporting" their kills, but that is not going to be
so easy....but it is the right thing to do, so we have "Better numbers for our science".
That will take "public pressure" probably in the end, but the talking has to start somewhere.
Basically, it's campaigning for change, but campaigning requires "Money".

Poaching...all we can do is report to RAPP, and to hopefully put more CO's in the field.
Not just more CO's....but money for them to actually leave the office with a full tank of gas.
Again....this requires public pressure on the Ministry to hire and fund for more CO's....but it requires "Money".

Predators...well again, to do it right and be effective...will require us to use "heli"...and again, public pressure
and "Money".

Logging...I think there is a long way to go to make it better for wildlife....getting those companies to really
deactivate those spur roads...but more importantly, to somehow just make those cutblocks a better
"future habitat environment".
Again...public pressure to have them change their practices "after they are done cutting".....they can spend the
"Money".

But the real theme is "Habitat"....
It's why I think the deer where I hunt just don't seem to be growing in size, even though the ratios look good going
into December.
Habitat. to make it better, or generate new ones.....that requires "Money".

The general themes are "public pressure and a whole lot of money".
If you want to see more game....that is what it takes...restrictions will just cause you further disappointment.
I have seen it...I have been hunting in restrictions for over 35 years now, and it hasn't made seeing game any better,
in the end, I just watch it "shrink"

The thing that people are saying to you is....money spent in the right way...will make the biggest difference.
And Public Pressure only works, if you have a large group, saying and shouting "the same thing".
(Does NOT work, if we continually show up as a group...and yet sit there and "quarrel amongst ourselves"!!)
Public Pressure to find and spend more Money is the "target you are looking for so you can see more game"

Now, like some are saying, if we all get on the same page and stop arguing, we now need to figure out way to
"Generate this Money".
Who should pay??how much??...how often???
Restrictions are just there to "fine tune" things....they will not fix what it is you are upset about.. that's were
others, like myself, say you are going wrong on...thus the replies you are receiving...not about you or your
hunting ability or passion....just your direction on finding a solution to these problems....
And remember, they are Province Wide Issues...happening in every Region.

[horshur]

Well said Bugle.Nicely done.

[bownut]

Wow that was quite the edit!!!!
You changed your post from being somewhat understanding to defiant.

Bownut, your mind is up, that is very obvious.
if you wish to stick with your rotary phone approach to wildlife, that's your prerogative.
I can rebut so much of what you say but it is pointless, your mind is made up however, that is very clear.

And no one is attacking you, jesus man.
Your rotary ph way of thinking is what's being called into question.

Understand, your church that you are preaching in has very few people sitting in it.... and the congregation is getting smaller.

Good luck.

It's going to take more than luck to open yours eyes, I understand that Habitat and Funding should be the main focus, thats not the question here.
It blows me away how groups still can't see the effect that hunters and back country users have on wildlife.
With the declining numbers there has been little changes to the pressures we place on them.
We still have the longest seasons going.

[bownut]

Bownut,

No one is trying to put into question "how you hunt" etc.
Seems like you hunt like many of us, and your passionate about hunting like many of us.
We all want to see wildlife "flourish" in the end....we all want to see more game then we have in the future.
The sooner the better.
But "restrictions" is where you are being "criticized".

Example,

I hunt in a small area of R3 for Mulies, usually in the month of November.
Over the past 3-4 years, I have noticed that for the most part, that about 80% of the Does I see have
spring Fawns with them.
So, I go for my stalk, and each time I generally trip up/spot the same amount of deer, year after year.
I walk the same mountain side, and do everything to locate deer.
Now, I thought, hey, 80% of the Does have fawns...should equate to "more deer sightings" next year.
Maybe not a huge difference, in just one year, but, like I said, this 80% is happening for several years, so, by now, there should be a lot more deer in that same area come November......but there's not.

So, what's going on??
LEH for Does has been in effect for a long time, never seemed to be that big of an impact...in my opinion.
The biggest change was the closure of R5 for 10 days in November...I can defiantly see that there was now
"way more hunting pressure" in my area (as I hunt close to R5.....but...I can't really say that a lot more deer
are taken....although you would have to surmise that "there are some more deer taken" in that area, and may not
have been taken if R5 was open.....seems logical.
But in the end, it doesn't appear that it's a ton more deer.
So, I ask....why am I not tripping over more deer? when the doe/fawn ratio seems really, really good in November?

Okay...FN close by, and I know from speaking to a few individuals, they take a good amount....
Seems to be 4-5 deer on average per individual.....which for me, is a little hard to accept.
What I don't know is....is that any different from past years....are they taking more now?
Let's say they aren't...that it has been this way for years.....no change.

Is it poaching?....could be....I see the odd deer down that makes me wonder if it was "accidently shot" or
possibly poached, and just horns or some prime cuts taken?
But, is that any different then in the past??
Let's say it's not.

Logging...well heck.. like one individual said...it used to be you could "shoot across the cutblock"....
but now it takes you 15 minutes to "drive thru it".
That's a big change...definitely changed were the deer walked/migrated thru.....but, for the most part,
it is on the "high plateau" (as I like to call it), which the deer don't really stay on, come snowfall (2 ft +).
So....nothing new there....deer migrate down to where I hunt.
Yes , plenty of "spur roads" off of the main FSR's for sure!, so a bit more "vehicle traffic" in areas that were once
inaccessible....and a bit more opportunity for guys on foot for sure, but I doubt it equates to a ton of success.
But deer definitely get "pushed more" then in the past.

So, I ask...where are these extra deer?
What is going on "after" the hunting season?
Something must be going on? between The end of November of one year, til the next November the following year.
Sounds like hunter success hasn't gone up...about the same as always, maybe even less.

The only ting I can come up with, is maybe it is the fact, that there just isn't "enough habitat to support more deer".
Wolves, and Cougars...they are up, and have an influence on an area that "never had wolves" (not as long as I can
remember), but the studies do seem to say that it is not "predation".
(I may argue that they might be wrong to a degree.....Yellowstone did show the drop in elk after wolf introduction,
and it was noticeable....so, I am not sure where the studies don't see that....)
But again....let's say they are right....so what is the real problem???

I guess what I am saying is....restrictions and closure will not get you anything more then you are already seeing
and experiencing when you are hunting right now.....it won't make a difference.....because "ethical hunting" is not
the problem for the declines you are experiencing.
Yes, you can close off areas, and in the end...you will just sit at home....not hunting...and then you will be disappointed when it doesn't ever open again....because the animals still didn't come back, because it wasn't hunting
that was causing the problem.

Yes, we have to get involved with the FN, and ask for them to "start reporting" their kills, but that is not going to be
so easy....but it is the right thing to do, so we have "Better numbers for our science".
That will take "public pressure" probably in the end, but the talking has to start somewhere.
Basically, it's campaigning for change, but campaigning requires "Money".

Poaching...all we can do is report to RAPP, and to hopefully put more CO's in the field.
Not just more CO's....but money for them to actually leave the office with a full tank of gas.
Again....this requires public pressure on the Ministry to hire and fund for more CO's....but it requires "Money".

Predators...well again, to do it right and be effective...will require us to use "heli"...and again, public pressure
and "Money".

Logging...I think there is a long way to go to make it better for wildlife....getting those companies to really
deactivate those spur roads...but more importantly, to somehow just make those cutblocks a better
"future habitat environment".
Again...public pressure to have them change their practices "after they are done cutting".....they can spend the
"Money".

But the real theme is "Habitat"....
It's why I think the deer where I hunt just don't seem to be growing in size, even though the ratios look good going
into December.
Habitat. to make it better, or generate new ones.....that requires "Money".

The general themes are "public pressure and a whole lot of money".
If you want to see more game....that is what it takes...restrictions will just cause you further disappointment.
I have seen it...I have been hunting in restrictions for over 35 years now, and it hasn't made seeing game any better,
in the end, I just watch it "shrink"

The thing that people are saying to you is....money spent in the right way...will make the biggest difference.
And Public Pressure only works, if you have a large group, saying and shouting "the same thing".
(Does NOT work, if we continually show up as a group...and yet sit there and "quarrel amongst ourselves"!!)
Public Pressure to find and spend more Money is the "target you are looking for so you can see more game"

Now, like some are saying, if we all get on the same page and stop arguing, we now need to figure out way to
"Generate this Money".
Who should pay??how much??...how often???
Restrictions are just there to "fine tune" things....they will not fix what it is you are upset about.. that's were
others, like myself, say you are going wrong on...thus the replies you are receiving...not about you or your
hunting ability or passion....just your direction on finding a solution to these problems....
And remember, they are Province Wide Issues...happening in every Region.

You have made some great statements in regards to the declining trends, so many things to think about.
It's funny how Restrictions are viewed as a fine tuning practice. By the time all the money starts to roll in and the divers get resolved, the only thing that will be left to tune is our whistle.
Sorry, but I can't sign up yet.

How about this, ask yourself, How did are seasons get to where we are now? What were the prime directives? Who put Opportunity and Increased Hunter Numbers first?
What was the state of habitat 10 years Ago? How could the Wildlife Numbers decline while all the seasons got longer?
Thats what I want brought to the table.

Nature doesn't tank out that fast, without a big hand by us.

[Ourea]

It's going to take more than luck to open yours eyes, I understand that Habitat and Funding should be the main focus, thats not the question here.
It blows me away how groups still can't see the effect that hunters and back country users have on wildlife.
With the declining numbers there has been little changes to the pressures we place on them.
We still have the longest seasons going.

See, here's the the deal bownut.
I hunt with a bio, another partner of mine is a field researcher (GB).
I have other contacts that are in the front lines with Gov working on this plan.
We talk a lot, i ask a lot of questions...... I've learned a lot as a result.

What blows most away at this stage, is how some simply refuse the overwhelming science and studies, from top experts in their fields, that have identified the key drivers that are negatively impacting most species in this province. From grizzlies to elk to MD, they have a pretty good understanding of the major issues. It will take money and political will. Both are slowly getting the interest of high level ears and gaining traction.

Anyways, I done on this topic.

[steepNdeep]

Wolves, and Cougars...they are up, and have an influence on an area that "never had wolves" (not as long as I can
remember), but the studies do seem to say that it is not "predation".
(I may argue that they might be wrong to a degree.....Yellowstone did show the drop in elk after wolf introduction,
and it was noticeable....so, I am not sure where the studies don't see that....)

I agree Bugle. I'd like to see more data on predators impacts on ungulate populations. That muley conservation presentation, for instance, was lacking in several ways:

1) They did not specifically study wolves in it. Wolf populations were still relatively new & it would have been very controversial & expensive to cull them in several areas for a study.

2) They only monitored deer populations for 2 years after removal of predators & then it happened to be a severe winter which wiped out the deer population. Skewed the data

3) The study 'marked' & monitored fawns starting at 6 months of age. Many are killed by predators right at birth & in the first 6 months. Maybe they are too hard to mark before that, but I think they are missing a large chunk of data there.

It would be interesting to get some data on the wolves impacts on ungulate populations in Region 3. That place is infected...

[Bugle M In]

You have made some great statements in regards to the declining trends, so many things to think about.
It's funny how Restrictions are viewed as a fine tuning practice. By the time all the money starts to roll in and the divers get resolved, the only thing that will be left to tune is our whistle.
Sorry, but I can't sign up yet.

How about this, ask yourself, How did are seasons get to where we are now? What were the prime directives? Who put Opportunity and Increased Hunter Numbers first?
What was the state of habitat 10 years Ago? How could the Wildlife Numbers decline while all the seasons got longer?
Thats what I want brought to the table.

Nature doesn't tank out that fast, without a big hand by us.

Habitat...10 years ago....well, we hadn't seen the "full effects of pine beetle kill" at that point.
Nature itself, start to blow all those dead trees down....made it hard for animals to travel thru some of those corridors.
Man made effects...all the logging the forestry companies did to get ahead of the beetle and harvest all the green trees before the beetle killed them off.....huge blocks gone quickly, and spur roads to boot.
Another nature effect, or lack of...was snow fall, and the lack of avalanches in the alpine country.
If you want a long story on elk in the EK in the good old days...let me know....but I guarantee you, when those natural events happened, it made for better habitat come summer.

Increased seasons or hunter numbers?
It is very hard for people to get involved in hunting and to raise hunter recruitment.
It's not like the 70's...where you walked in, threw some cash down, walked away with your hunting tags...
Oh, and bought a 308 british for 15.00$, without a PAL etc.
Lots of people hunted then....not necessarily effectively, but, if they wanted to do it, it was like going to a hockey game tonight...just drop a few bucks...off you go....
Opportunity....well the folks that hunted in R3, that showed me that place...they used to hunt it till the end of Dec.
There is no increase....all I have ever seen is decreased opportunity....shorten seasons and LEH.
Buy tags..if it walked and had antlers back then...you were good to go...hunting regs were one , two sided printed page....not a bible, and requiring you to check the I-net before you walk out the door because of last second changes.

But you know...what didn't happen all those years....F*** all was placed into doing some real serious habitat
restoration....and worse...protection.
Those few bucks that the Ministry and those leaders bragged about...wouldn't have paid for much of anything.
And over the years...the money never increased...but the costs to do a project did.
Thus, every year, the money didn't go as far as the previous year...so less got done.

And you ask...why did...is....wildlife declining....
I don't need to "see it"....I don't need to "think" about it any longer........I have "Lived" thru it.

The reason Wildlife is Shrinking...and I am not just talking about here in BC....not just in Canada or the
US of A....But EVERYWHERE...is Human Expansion.....Overpopulation.
And without preserving habitat.....nothing will survive...even if you ban hunting outright.

Sugestion:

For everyone....there was a documentary called "Surviving Progress"
"Visually" good to watch, as well as "Thought Provoking".
It has to do with the planet...but with humans trying to live on it...and everything that goes on...but in the end,
shows the impact on this planet.
Even Dr. Suzuki had some decent perspective on this.
But it touches on China, Africa, South America, North America...
Lots of people with some "Human Insight" on our future.

Watch it...it will make you see just how "messed up" things are becoming.
After that....you will understand why you are not seeing the game people once talked about.
You will realize why you will probably never see those numbers again.
If you think hunting is the problem, or the major problem to "lack of game"....
Then I suggest you seriously consider "hanging it up"....why add to the decline in wildlife if hunting is it's
reason.

Again....watch "surviving progress"...something I think a lot of members might find "thought provoking"
Interestingly...it comments on the same question you are asking......"WHY"

[HarryToolips]

Both of your last posts are well done Bugle, it is the truth..

[WKBGTA_BC]

People of this post and whoever else this may concern,

My name is Josh and I am the President of the WKBGTA. I would like to start off by making an apology, that being it has taken me this long to respond to all of your friendly inquiries about our organization. I started reading this thread over a week ago but have been awaiting registration approval from the administrators to allow me to post.

That being said I am going to dive right into this popular thread and hopefully address all of the questions, complaints and personal attacks on our VOLUNTEER wildlife organization. As far as the document with "our" proposals that you have all reviewed, it is accurate in some ways and completely inaccurate in others. Some of it has been completely misconstrued and false information has been released to the public and I am thoroughly looking into how that happened and who is responsible.

Let's start with the Mule Deer proposal. Yes, we do want to see a shorter season and our reasoning is we would like to see the mature bucks breed the does in peace during the heaviest rut period which we believe falls between November 1-10 (in most cases). We feel that those illusive, mature, breeding bucks dummy up during the rut and get harvested at their highest point of weakness when they are distracted by their harem of does. Another concern for this time of year is the potential for heavy snowfall which pushes these mule deer out of their living rooms and forces them to breed at lower elevations which are easily accessible to all hunters. I can assure you that our proposal had absolutely NOTHING to do with the meat being tainted with swollen, rutted up scent glands. I am a mule deer hunter (along with many other members of our club) and I have sunk my teeth into September bucks right through to November 10th bucks and I have never thrown a morsel of meat into my dog's dish. Our focus for mule deer is NOT to see more "trophy" bucks that will fill our banquet walls as some of you have accused, but to see a healthy, thriving mule deer population again in the West Kootenays and province wide. We are well aware that regulation changes are very low on the priority list when it comes to things needing to be done, however, that is all the biologists asked from us when we drafted this document therefor that is all you have read thus far. What you haven't read is our views on habitat loss, controlled burns, wintering ground restoration, predation and road closures due to high accessibility in the back country, just to name a few.

Next, the Elk/Moose Proposal. Yes, we proposed a combined provincial bag limit for elk and moose to be 1. Our reasoning SOLELY being to take some of the pressure off both species. We feel that by making a hunter choose one of the mentioned big game animals instead of both, it MAY help reduce pressure on the unselected species. Our proposal had absolutely NOTHING to do with families not needing that much meat, we are well aware of how much meat a family can burn through during the off season, especially if wild meat is the only meat on the menu. We are not and will never be an organization that tries to dictate how much meat a family may harvest in a hunting season. Our focus for elk and moose is spot on with mule deer, increase population, decrease calf mortality and create a healthy, thriving population for both species in the West Kootenays and province wide. Again, we realize that regulation changes are low on the priority list but as you can see that is all this document focused on when we were asked to draft our views.

I'm going to address a few questions I've seen regarding our banquet and in return I am going to ask some of my own:
Yes, we do host a "trophy" banquet each year for successful hunters/fisherman to enter their animals/fish into the competition for the opportunity at a trophy or certificate and possibly a free shoulder mount.
Yes, we put up all these entries on display for all to see throughout the night.
Yes, we have a big awards ceremony.

Now I have a few questions for you people:
Did any of you know that we have a junior category for all hunters under the age of 18 where no minimum requirements are necessary in any class?
Did any of you know that the banquet is open for ANYONE to attend and our non-hunter attendance is high and increasing as the years go on?
Did any of you know that we hold a massive fundraiser at the banquet that generates substantial funding for us to donate back into wildlife?
Did any of you know that with that funding, over the last five years...
We purchased a mechanical elk decoy for our local COS?
We purchase 4000 lbs of sheep feed annually for the Bighorn Sheep on the Salmo-Creston Pass, pick it up, deliver it and feed them once a week throughout the entire winter?
We've donated funding to "Beaks" bird sanctuary?
We purchased salt and helicopter fuel for the Mountain Goats in the Slocan Valley and distributed the salt via helicopter high on the mountain range to ensure decreased highway mortality?
We donated money to the East Kootenay emergency deer/elk feed program last winter due to the harsh winter conditions?
We maintain our own local deer feeders in the event of a harsh winter season?
Did any of you know that our organization is 100% VOLUNTEER?
Did any of you know that our organization is over 60 years old and has been giving back to wildlife since the day it started?
Did any of you know that the WKBGTA is part of a Regional wildlife group called the West Kootenay Outdoorsmen where we meet quarterly, hash out concerns and work directly with our local biologists and the BCWF in hopes of correcting some of the many problems this province is experiencing with wildlife?

I could go on but I don't want to ramble, that's not my intent. Things to remember about those proposals are only some of the information was accurate and they were based on our opinion of the WEST KOOTENAYS. We understand that the province has many different sectors that need to be managed separately. I apologize that you were all misinformed and I wish I had answers as to how that happened. I personally drafted our proposals myself and I would be happy to share that document with anyone that would like to see it. As hunters we need to stick together and threads like this are nothing but great ammunition for the anti's and we all know they already have a full magazine. For those of you that were judgmental, confrontational and malicious, I invite you to join our organization and inspire us with your energetic views on areas that need improvement in our organization. Our door is always open to people willing to contribute, suggest new ideas and improvements and dedicate their time to our wildlife. It's easy to sit behind the keyboard and criticize anything and everything someone is doing but it takes a certain somebody to get off the couch and make a difference. Unfortunately, complacency is a huge reason as to why we are here today. Involvement is the only thing that is going to make a difference and that's what we are striving for. Our club is heading over with a truck and car trailer to pick up 4000 lbs of sheep feed for the annual winter feed program on Saturday and then attending the quarterly WKO meeting on Sunday. What are YOU doing this weekend to make a difference? Are you going to be a keyboard hero or a contributor?

I hope this helps clear up any confusion. If you have any other questions or inquiries we have a website and a Facebook page that may help you understand who we really are and what we do behind the scenes.

[steepNdeep]

My name is Josh and I am the President of the WKBGTA. re and what we do behind the scenes.

Well written Josh! You've come a long way as a hunter, since we met & you were just getting started...

As I said before, I've never seen a group of hunters that cares & does more for wildlife conservation than the hunters in the West Kootenays.

This place is good for entertainment.

Keep up the good work!