Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

[Rob Chipman]

What I say on this crap is F them. Their authority is for their people only. I am not native so I do not abide by their laws. They can govern their own people. Aboriginal law does not apply to non aboriginals so they can go F themselves. Our government better grow some balls and stop drinking Liberal Snowflake soup. I will hunt anywhere in BC that is legal under "BC" law!

"...lot of things going on in this thread...."


If you're going to follow BC laws then I don't think anyone has a problem with your approach. If you haven't read the draft plan for the implementation of DRIPA you might want to. It seems clear to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that what you think of as "Aboriginal law" will (and in some cases I think we can argue it already has) be given the full force of BC law.

If you are upset that the feds and province don't share your politics I get it. You're not alone. Mind you....the BC Liberals all voted for DRIPA and Stephen Harper was the first PM to apologize for residential schools.

Anyway, there is a relatively recent world-wide trend among government to do some fairly dumb, divisive and unsustainable social engineering. Truth and reconciliation is not one of those things. If you think it is you haven't been paying attention (it's very simple to demonstrate that the T&R process we're going through now has been around much longer than the stuff you're complaining about).

If you're ok with First Nations governing First Nations people only, you're really going to want to read the draft plan for DRIPA. You're also going to want to wrap your head around the whole "unceded" concept. Those two things can very easily lead to a completely legal place that I don't think you'll like *if you're concerned about the restoration of fish, wildlife and habitat and access to it.*

So, I think I'm with you on the majority of what you're saying (abide by BC laws, our governments should stop embracing stupid and divisive policies) but I'm not sure that telling First Nations to **** themselves is going to solve the restoration of fish, wildlife and habitat and access to it challenge.

Pick your battles, right? I'm worried about restoration of fish, wildlife and habitat and access to it. That's my battle.

[Rob Chipman]

Some of The first nation tribes fought brutally with each other here in bc. Land occupants changed many times.

That is absolutely true.

Land occupancy changed many times. Title to land? Different story, and critical to this issue.

Its a fact that most of the First Nations I've looked into don't dispute that who possessed the land was a concept pre-contact, was an issue at the time of contact, and still is an issue to this day. Many celebrate their long defence of their lands and celebrate the spilling of blood to do it.

So, you are correct and I agree with you in terms of occupancy.

We need to think through what that means for *title* and whether we want to accept the answer (which has been proven substantially at the highest court in the land and which is getting pushed further, all in accordance with the Canadian legal system.

Before anyone hits the keyboard to fast or too hard take a quick gander at the leaked draft decision bun toss going on in the US right now. You wouldn't want to pick some strange bedfellows, right? Or maybe you do actually line uppolitically with Joy Behar and the ladies on the View )

[Rob Chipman]

I will skirt the spiral of this thread.

As hunters/conservationists, our concern is about wildlife sustainability and access to this wonderful province.
Talk all you want about treaty this, treaty that.

Access to the back country is paramount to folks like us.

It will pain me if I have to pay for a permit or be refused access to any area I have been hunting for decades without ever encountering an FN member.

Curious to see where this goes.





Hopefully Gov will stop caving to every special interest request.

You are right about our concern (that is, the concern of you and me, but like I said, there are a lot of other things going on in this thread): restoration of fish, wildlife and habitat and access to it.

I don't know where you've been hunting for decades, but there have long been no go zones and permits that you have to buy. If FN instituted a permit and access system that was reasonable and corresponded to your views on conservation (ie, the FN rules aligned with western science, were as transparent as the current system and were applied fairly) would you still feel pain or would you accept it?

In terms of government caving to special interests, I think you're being a bit unfair when the government loses to the FN in open court according to the laws of Canada. In other applications, sure, ok, fine, but when someone fights a multi-year court battle and wins it's tough to call complying with the ruling "caving". Not applicable yet in this LSIB IPCA, but you see where I'm going.

[TheObserver]

Changes, prosperity and good solutions not gonna happen with the current government, both provincial and federal.
We are in a downward spiral of marxist/socialist idealogical dictate and we need to get the UN, UNDRIP out of our lives!

X3 well said

[Rob Chipman]

You make a number of observations and some conclusions that in my mind miss an underlying theme. That being that we live in a democracy and the majority rules. Also that the Government is acting in our best interest. One of your statements : A better alternative, I think (and feel free to call me crazy) is to figure out which values you really want to commit to, and then figure out how you're going to reconcile those values with the facts. I have figured out how I want to live and what i want to commit to. In short a fair system which recognizes the wishes of the electorate(majority). That rewards hard work and an honest lifestyle and respects and rewards those values. The way things are headed is far from that view. We have a Federal Government who continually creates division between people, classes races, and genders. Add to this the idea that roughly 3% of the population are going to dictate terms to the other 97%. The Governments , both provincial and federal have little idea how to deal with this other than deflection and dragging there feet. They have now decided to listen to the 3% and virtue shame any of the 97% who oppose the idea. I would hope we can all prosper in this country well based on our individual skill sets and what we bring to the table. Unfortunately the Government has decided that merit plays no role in modern society and there should be equal outcomes for all and especially minorities. In my opinion that only weakens a society and a nation. I wish First nations the best, but feel the path we are presently headed down is not one of earned prosperity, but one of continual Government hand outs and subsidies. And as you have witnessed in this thread, a certain amount of animosity. I very much admire the hard work and leadership of First Nations in Kitimat and Osoyoos, who have developed economic strategies and business plans that align with present day realities. I can see why there are people who are afraid or concerned with the way things are going. Instead of working together to find solutions that are beneficial and fair to all. There seems to be a cycle of reinventing history to suit the appropriate narratives and or erasing past history or historical figures to fit the same narrative.

I'm not missing your underlying theme.

You are, however, missing some important information that might force you to make some tough choices, and I'm not sure you've done that. It's a long conversation and we won't wrap it up all in a couple forum comments, but if you think there is some sort of 3% vs 97% split on this issue you're sorely misinformed. If you think that 3% of the population is "dictating" terms to the other 97%, again, look out your window or turn on your TV. (I'm not attacking you personally, but you've already admitted in other comments on this thread that you were unaware of some pretty critical facts).

A lot of what you say is correct. I can't see what it has to do with solving the problem of restoring fish, wildlife and habitat, or maintaining access to it. I think you're pissed that you (like many of us) hold some minority political values that aren't being recognized or empowered. That's a fair position, but it is also one of those "lot of things going on in this thread".

I'll get back to you on some of the facts you're missing. You can figure out what to do with them.

[Rob Chipman]

Changes, prosperity and good solutions not gonna happen with the current government, both provincial and federal.
We are in a downward spiral of marxist/socialist idealogical dictate and we need to get the UN, UNDRIP out of our lives!

You're right on a lot of that. The question is: if you want to restore fish, wildlife and habitat and maintain access to them what's the best way to accomplish that? There are a lot of Marxist, socialist and UN supporters who live, work, pay taxes and vote in this province.

Now, if you want to get rid of the political voice of the Marxists, socialists and UN supporters who live, work, pay taxes and vote in this province? Please keep me updated on how you do and what successes you enjoy. It's certainly one of the interesting things going on in this thread (it might be more suited for "Politics and Debates" rather than Lower Mainland hunting and fishing, but who cares, right?).


I'll keep you updated on the fish, wildlife, habitat and access thing.

[Rob Chipman]

The ironic part about LSIB declaring the area "protected" is that they are the ones mainly responsible for the issues they're claiming. Large FN hunting camps bombing around the Easy Going Creek motor vehicle closure in August shooting at anything with a heartbeat. Mule deer does and cow moose by the truck load. It's a sickening sight if you've ever been up there in the summer before hunting season opens up for residents.

When the forest licensee at the time wanted to harvest pockets of spruce showing signs of bark beetle, the band shut them down. They eventually got so frustrated with the band that they handed them the tenure. Now, what hasn't burnt are just grey match sticks and blow down as the entire valley has been hammered by bark beetle.

I don't know the particulars in this case, and it seems like you do, but there's no question you absolutely identify a real issue (and you're not alone at seeing it).

I consider this my traditional territory and will still recreate there as I please.

I like the honesty and respect the values.

[dino]

Thanks, Dino. Like I said, there are a lot of things going on in this thread and it can be tough to figure out how to respond, but when one person brings up one issue it gets way easier.

It seems to me that in the comment you're concerned about the fiscal management, and probably the monetary, policies embraced by the Federal government, with a chaser of the FNs wanting something unsustainable (I don't want to put words own your mouth, but I think Im reading you 5x5).

You are 100% correct on the fiscal and monetary policies. I'm with you. There will be a reckoning at some point and it will hurt a lot of people in the pocketbook. The declaration of an IPCA or restricting access to the IPCA for resident hunters, of course, is neither fiscal nor monetary policy, and the LSIB doesn't make those policies. Yes, I understand that the government loves throwing more borrowed money at *any* problem. But, government borrowing and spending their way to power has very little to do with fish, wildlife and habitat restoration, nor with access to those three things for resident hunters and angler.

So, I sure your concern on fiscal and monetary issues, and you're pretty accurate about the state of those two things, but I want to figure out how to restore fish, wildlife and habitat and maintain access to it for everyone, and do that according to the rules and conditions that actually exist in BC.


What will FNs do when they can no longer bite the hand that feeds them? Good question, I guess, but why single out FNs? On a serious note, it's worth pointing out that there isn't a monolithic FN with a list of common demands, and I'll guarantee that there are Indigenous people who have some good answers to that question. Do the math, war-game the obvious. Do you really want an answer to the question of what, for example, Kaska Dena or Tahltan *might* do if they lost all government funding? You think Squamish Nation, holders of some of the mot expensive real estate the world couldn't survive without Justin and John?

Anyway, thanks for pulling out one of the threads that is part of the tangle of "a lot of things going on" in this discussion. If you can expand on how fixing monetary and fiscal policy gets resident hunters and anglers access to an abundant landscape I'm all ears.

I would be asking the impossible to keep the politics out of it and just attacking the real issues with regards to fish and wildlife.
I can remember working for a fish hatchery in port renfrew 30 years ago and fighting tooth and nail to get any funding for the hatchery. Mostly it was volunteers that came together raised and released millions of fry. The money that the FN received for their hatchery that never existed was at that time around 7-800 thousand dollars.
This is one small example. Im at a stage that is past reconciliation. I am a simple man trying to understand how anyone that believes the path were on is sustainable economically or environmentally.
The only way (based only on opinion) i see a way forward is that some hard decisions need to be made. This next opinion will sound horrible but its where im at.
I believe in one county,one law.
When we understand we are equal with no special treatment to anyone our success will be based on our own merits. The system has to change because we are headed on a collision course with even greater division.

Im a good example of where many of us are at. I just dont care anymore. I really dont.

[Rob Chipman]

I would be asking the impossible to keep the politics out of it and just attacking the real issues with regards to fish and wildlife.
I can remember working for a fish hatchery in port renfrew 30 years ago and fighting tooth and nail to get any funding for the hatchery. Mostly it was volunteers that came together raised and released millions of fry. The money that the FN received for their hatchery that never existed was at that time around 7-800 thousand dollars.
This is one small example. Im at a stage that is past reconciliation. I am a simple man trying to understand how anyone that believes the path were on is sustainable economically or environmentally.
The only way (based only on opinion) i see a way forward is that some hard decisions need to be made. This next opinion will sound horrible but its where im at.
I believe in one county,one law.
When we understand we are equal with no special treatment to anyone our success will be based on our own merits. The system has to change because we are headed on a collision course with even greater division.

Im a good example of where many of us are at. I just dont care anymore. I really dont.

I hear you. There has been a lot of divisive mismanagement of the body politic. I agree with you that the larger path we are on is not sustainable economically or environmentally, and hard decisions will be made one way or another. That's a much bigger problem than T&R and an IPCA, mind you, or how RH are going to maintain access.

The opinion that there should be one country and one law isn't a terrible one. I happen to share it. It's something that's never existed in this country, mind you, it's also not widely held, and our legal system doesn't support it. Given that there are only 24 hours in a day and we have to pick our battles I'm not picking the battle to establish one country, one law. That's a big battle that means risking your life, liberty and property with little prospect of success.

There is a really good chance that we're headed for more division. The cavalry ain't coming, and if it does it ain't coming to rescue resident hunters and anglers. We need to carve out our own space.

When you say you don't care anymore, what, exactly, is it that you don't care about? If it's restoration of fish, wildlife and habitat and access to it for all BCers then you and I don't need to talk about this anymore - we've got completely different agendas and I wish you success. If you do care about those issues, well, see above: the cavalry ain't coming. We're outgunned and on our own. We need to figure out which problem we're going to solve and move past the complaint stage.

[TheObserver]

I'm not missing your underlying theme.

You are, however, missing some important information that might force you to make some tough choices, and I'm not sure you've done that. It's a long conversation and we won't wrap it up all in a couple forum comments, but if you think there is some sort of 3% vs 97% split on this issue you're sorely misinformed. If you think that 3% of the population is "dictating" terms to the other 97%, again, look out your window or turn on your TV. (I'm not attacking you personally, but you've already admitted in other comments on this thread that you were unaware of some pretty critical facts).

A lot of what you say is correct. I can't see what it has to do with solving the problem of restoring fish, wildlife and habitat, or maintaining access to it. I think you're pissed that you (like many of us) hold some minority political values that aren't being recognized or empowered. That's a fair position, but it is also one of those "lot of things going on in this thread".

I'll get back to you on some of the facts you're missing. You can figure out what to do with them.

I might be mistaken but I think the 3%-97% he is reffering to is the 3% global power elite that make the decisions for government rule and social engineering, vs. The 97% being us the indians and whoever else exists in this melting pot experiment, in the end we will all be f** ked over by "them" as history proves if we keep on this course we are headed. It seems to me and many more would agree worlwide that the powers that be are intentionally destroying the economy, and pretty much every facet of the system so they build up a new one how they see fit which will be total control not just of guns and hunting.

The "highest court in the land" or literally anything the government or media says cannot be trusted.

P.s. nevermind on his meaning 3-97% reread that