Mule Deer and Antler point restrictions

[labguy]

The cow/calf LEH reduced the population, which was the intent, but the bad winter in 97 was the kicker. Even the elk in Yellowstone had a massive die-off that year (no hunting there).

These papers were written for hunters by researchers across North America. There are literally hundreds of sources that went into these snippets, so that hunters could understand how things work.

I'm not talking about LEH for cow/calf. This was a GOS on cow/calf and it happened well before 1997.....before there was such a thing as LEH. I really can't remember the years but I'm going to guess late 60's early 70's. There were gut piles every 100 yards on many forest service roads in the EK's.

This event (read piss poor game management designed to placate the cattlemen) decimated the elk herd which has never recovered to numbers anywhere close to what they were before this slaughter.

As far as the research papers, while the conclusions drawn may be correct, they are still based on opinions from general observation and the gathering of certain data.......from which no credible scientist could possibly draw a definitive and absolute conclusion.


Look, I've heard these theories being touted and debated for half a century. I'd be very careful about embracing the latest thinking on anything related to game management.......which in this province has just about the poorest track record of any ministry since the dawning of time.........an bit of an exaggeration but not by much.

It is an interesting article which possibly holds some truths.......thanks for bringing it foreward.

[Husky7mm]

GG we believe you!!! "Happy habitat" will increase mule deer. Who doesnt want more mule deer? As far as it goes in region 4 its clear many are concerned about their obvious decline, its a hot topic that keeps coming up and its now popping up in other regions. So what's the immediate plan? Habitat enhancement is coming in at the snails pace, predator management pretty much nil....( BC govs broke) But lots of greedy selfish hunters out there.... Why not manage them? They want to go out hunting and wack and stack game, whatever's open really. Many would love to punch every tag they purchased so they could give themselves a good pat on the back over the Internet. Same folks that have to dump out freezer burnt meat to make room for the next round... Is not liberal elk and whitetail seasons not good enough? Why not loosen up the sheep and goat regs and exploit their populations too then? After all hunting had nothing to do with the decline of a species, right we just can't take enough of them to harm the population I have read?.... If that were true then liberal seasons would not be required to bring the elk and wt populations into check every so often. Funny they have little problem increasing their numbers albeit surrounded by piss poor habitat??

[Husky7mm]

And just so the Wannabes get it through their thick skulls.

Region 3 has 3 months of seasons (GOS and 4-point or better combined). It has heavy hunting pressure due to it's proximity to the Coast and to the Okanagan. Hell we even get quite a bit of spill over from both Region 5 and Region 4 as well. We've had incredible wolf predation in the last decade in many areas. It is pretty easy to see our deer numbers are drastically down where the wolf pressure has been heavy. And yet despite all this, we grow GIANTs like this. Region 3 has it right people. Time to get your collective asses out of the sand and start demanding the other regions follow suit.

Difference being region 3 has lots of mule deer (and very little elk). I was starting to believe you about your decimated deer herd until you posted your 2013 late season pics, more 4 points in your pics than I saw in the last 3 yrs in the Ek. It's like complaining about your shoes to someone with a wooden leg. Lol
Congrats on the matching sheds, I am sure you earned them and they are an amazing find!

[Husky7mm]

Can you give us some examples of where this strategy has been successful?

Region 5 prior to the existing two md deer limit combining with the anybuck season going into November. Within 2 yrs of the new season there was a lot of WTF's.... Region 5 used to have some excellent mule deer hunting, I am sure there were other factor at the time but it is one valid factor.

[coach]

Region 5 prior to the existing two md deer limit combining with the anybuck season going into November. Within 2 yrs of the new season there was a lot of WTF's.... Region 5 used to have some excellent mule deer hunting, I am sure there were other factor at the time but it is one valid factor.

You're saying APR's made the difference in region 5?

[dana]

Difference being region 3 has lots of mule deer (and very little elk). I was starting to believe you about your decimated deer herd until you posted your 2013 late season pics, more 4 points in your pics than I saw in the last 3 yrs in the Ek. It's like complaining about your shoes to someone with a wooden leg. Lol
Congrats on the matching sheds, I am sure you earned them and they are an amazing find!

Husky,
Did you ever read that issue of BC Outdoors? Did you ever see what the Region 3 bio said about the North Thompson? Why was his comments the only bio to mention an area hit hard by wolves??? Did your area get mentioned??? Hmmm???? I can tell ya in first 2 months of hunting I only saw 2 bucks. Both of which my kids killed. I didn't see my first legal 4 point until the 3rd week of Nov. That particular week I saw plenty of bucks. Numerous mature bucks with one absolute giant. And then guess what???? After a few hard days of rutting, they disappeared. I haven't seen much since then. Heck, I've barely seen a doe this Christmas break. What does this mean? Exactly what I've been saying all along. The deer are hiding. They have fallen right back into their 'survival' pattern. The herd mentality of yarding up will get them killed when it comes to wolves. They know that. So they each go their separate ways and to the average hunter it seems like they are all 'gone'. Heck, in the first 2 months of the season, I was even starting to believe you and your BS. I, too, was starting to believe they were in fact 'ALL DEAD'. A few days with the right timing, my attitude has changed. I had a buddy that hunted the same ground I did the week before. He saw a total of 7 deer in 7 days. Not one legal buck. Ended up getting his LEH doe on his drive out of camp as he was leaving back for the Coast. Bad timing is all. I timed my holidays about perfect this year. I have another buddy that waited till the end. He too missed it and had a very bleak last week of the season.

Tell me how do 2 absolute Giants grow up in an area overcome by wolves????? On top of that, it has been plagued by hoards of hunters flocking here for the elusive 'Gold' because some jackass named dana keeps spouting off about the big deer that live here. Hmmm, I wonder maybe it has something to do with the fact that our Region 3 Bios have a good grasp on how things work.

[M.Dean]

Small font sizes give me a headache. Must be getting old.

I don't read it when it's that small, I just read the comments, then make a stupid comment based on all the other comments! I like to see my name at the top of the comment part,makes me feel real Important! I don't really give a shit what it's all about!

[Gateholio]

GG we believe you!!! "Happy habitat" will increase mule deer. Who doesnt want more mule deer? As far as it goes in region 4 its clear many are concerned about their obvious decline, its a hot topic that keeps coming up and its now popping up in other regions. So what's the immediate plan? Habitat enhancement is coming in at the snails pace, predator management pretty much nil....( BC govs broke) But lots of greedy selfish hunters out there.... Why not manage them? They want to go out hunting and wack and stack game, whatever's open really. Many would love to punch every tag they purchased so they could give themselves a good pat on the back over the Internet. Same folks that have to dump out freezer burnt meat to make room for the next round... Is not liberal elk and whitetail seasons not good enough? Why not loosen up the sheep and goat regs and exploit their populations too then? After all hunting had nothing to do with the decline of a species, right we just can't take enough of them to harm the population I have read?.... If that were true then liberal seasons would not be required to bring the elk and wt populations into check every so often. Funny they have little problem increasing their numbers albeit surrounded by piss poor habitat??

Don't most people hope to kill an animal they buy a tag for? Your arguments sound more like rants. "Those damn greedy hunters buy tags and then want to actually kill something! So greedy !"

[BRrooster]

I believe in the old saying, " Big bucks dont get big by being stupid". To some extent, anyway, game animals are getting educated. Mule deer used to
stop and look back to see if they were safe or not or possibly to see what had scared them anyway. The one buck I saw this year didnt give me that
chance. The stupid bucks dont grow old to pass on thier genetics.
Yes, I would like to see more game animals, and I agree that there are problems in BC. Not being a Wildlife Biologist , I dont feel confident enough to comment on what should be done. Like Einstein or whoever said, every action has an equal and opposit reaction. Change something and something
else is going to happen. Somewhere out there , every option has been tried, I think. When I train a new employee at my job, I like to say, "use my
experience". Most times they dont, and learn by their own screw ups. I guess thats what is happening in BC.

On another note, how did everyones game cameras work this year? I saw more game animals after dark than during daylite hours.
cheers

[GoatGuy]

I'm not talking about LEH for cow/calf. This was a GOS on cow/calf and it happened well before 1997.....before there was such a thing as LEH. I really can't remember the years but I'm going to guess late 60's early 70's. There were gut piles every 100 yards on many forest service roads in the EK's.

This event (read piss poor game management designed to placate the cattlemen) decimated the elk herd which has never recovered to numbers anywhere close to what they were before this slaughter.

As far as the research papers, while the conclusions drawn may be correct, they are still based on opinions from general observation and the gathering of certain data.......from which no credible scientist could possibly draw a definitive and absolute conclusion.


Look, I've heard these theories being touted and debated for half a century. I'd be very careful about embracing the latest thinking on anything related to game management.......which in this province has just about the poorest track record of any ministry since the dawning of time.........an bit of an exaggeration but not by much.

It is an interesting article which possibly holds some truths.......thanks for bringing it foreward.

What you're referring to is a targeted reduction - apparently it worked. From your perspective the cattlemen of the day wanted elk reduced, they won the political battle, and the branch reduced the elk population. What that has to do with the thread (or "piss poor game management") is beyond me, but point taken. If you're drawing a parallel between a planned elk reduction working and APRs which don't increase the wildlife population I don't see the relationship.

The 'science' on APR is well substantiated; the conclusions have been consistent across several jurisdictions where they were tried (alberta, washington, colorado, utah, montana, oregon, idaho and on and on and on), populations were monitored regularly and animals were collared. What they have and do in the States is much different than BC. They monitor populations through inventory, collar, and dead side data. They have also conducted studies where fetal rates and reproductive success is measured and monitored. They have conducted experiments where sex ratios were drawn right down to 10:100 to see if there was an effect. The point here is antler restrictions don't make more or bigger deer.

So, if the intent is to make more deer or bigger deer why would we waste all of our resources, time and very few dollars on APRs when we could be focused on making more deer?


It isn't the 'latest thinking' it's actually quite old. Fortunately there are some researchers who care enough about the resource that they've compiled these snippets to help educate and focus stakeholders and hunters on game management. I think it's a great step forward, recognizing there are and always will be people who do not support science-based management. The juice isn't worth the squeeze for the outliers, but for the majority of people who care about the resource I think this is another tool to help get hunters focused on making more wildlife.