Training compromise

[Kasomor]

I think LAbguy is on to something here.

I hunt with a field trial bred lab, who is used as a hunting dog and she is a PITA in the blind. She is a fabulous retriever but she never calms down. In the house, blind or truck. Her owner loves that about her...Me? She's fun to run at a test but then I am soooooooo glad she doesn't live with me.

I watched a number of dogs this weekend at a simple WC/ I/ X test that I would not take into a blind with me because they were off the wall wired for sound.

For the average person it's going to take a whole lot of education, time and effort to bring out the best in these dogs. Good luck.

If I was in the market for a Hunt Test/ hunting lab (blahh-blahh-spit-yuck ) I'd look at Cedar Brae.

If I wanted to do Field Trials / hunting I'd look at FT lines.

And if I bought a lab from FT lines I know I'd have to do some serious training to end up with a dog that I could live with that is not a PITA.

[835]

Kas and Lab guy,

Before it gets blured. To ME there are three types of lab. Show which i dont want to talk about. Feild and this is the difficult part for me to explain is the Block head. In my 3 lab life there were 2 brittish dogs and one Feild dog. They both, for me do the same thing except the feild dog is way more to handle. I wanted to talk about the differances here. I understand my terms are incorrect but it is the only way i can put it.

Piper, is such a pleasing dog to work with, she is slow and methodical but compleates the job. Chase is a hand full.

I just want to talk a little dog and learn a bit. And yes LabGuy i will be doing more with my next dog, i fully admit my lack that way with Chase. But since you are familiar with Pipers breeder maybe you can see what i am talking about.

[835]

So Kasomor, What is the split for "Feild" dog?
You refered to hunt test (Cedar brea) maybe vs say a Jimsue dog? Is there a term i am missing that would better explain this? Or are they considered the same.


Disclaimer: I am only picking these two breeders because of familiarity.

[Kasomor]

I d think the training is the same, And fully aggree some people want more from a dog for competition. But do you see a major difference in Drive between the dogs i am talking about? Not speed but a drive to complete the task.

I hope you understand my laymens terms Feild and Block head. Im at a bit of a loss to explaine it better. Im not talking show dog or poor bread Lab.

English (block head) and American (field bred).

Yes, I see a difference in drive.

[835]

Yes, I see a difference in drive.

So If a good trainer was to train both dogs to hunt you think the Feild dog would do it better.

[Kasomor]

So Kasomor, What is the split for "Field" dog?
You refered to hunt test (Cedar brea) maybe vs say a Jimsue dog? Is there a term i am missing that would better explain this? Or are they considered the same.


Disclaimer: I am only picking these two breeders because of familiarity.

You are going to get me in trouble here.

I have never seen Jimsue run his dogs nor have I ever even seen his dogs...but he$$ he was in the ribbons at the recent FT test and that doesn't happen to just every one!

I have seen some of Cedar Brea's dogs work. Like I said if I wanted a hunt test / hunting lab (yuck, spit, yuck) I'd look at Cedar Brea. I like how her dogs work and look. I know they hunt their dogs.

What do you want in a dog??

[Kasomor]

I't's what you can live with too. Your not going to be hunting 24 / 7.

How much hunting do you actually do? How many birds does your dog retrieve each season. What are the conditions you hunt in? What is your expectations and goals with your dog? How much time are you going to put into training not just for hunting but obeidience as well? How much money do you want to spend on making yourself a good trainer? How much effort are you going to put into training?

Have you gone to a number of HT and FT? Once you've gone to a events. Then think about how many hours it took to get the dogs to that level and the commitment it took too.

[labguy]

So If a good trainer was to train both dogs to hunt you think the Feild dog would do it better.

In most cases..............yes. Field bred labs generally have a higher prey drive than many show bred labs which makes them able to endure enormous pressure/adversity just to complete a retrieve.

All of the responses you've received have been generalizations. No two dogs are alike and many show bred dogs compete well in field trials but are poorly mannered in a blind.

Conversely, many field bred dogs are a pleasure to hunt over when properly trained.

I think the main ingredient, (besides natural ability) in having a dog that can do both tasks well, is in the training.

By setting and maintaining very high standards of obedience from day one, I think most of these dogs will make great hunting companions.......there are obviously exceptions.

The field bred labs that Kas was talking about, that are poorly mannered, "crazy dogs" were probably not very well trained. Again, this is a very broad generalization.

Spend some time at a training day (usually Sunday) with the Vancouver Island Retriever Club and see for yourself what to expect. You will see some "crazy" dogs and some very well mannered and well trained examples of what good training can accomplish.

There is no better resourse to answer the questions you have than to take a Sunday and go see for yourself.

[Foxton Gundogs]

I speak as a Spaniel breeder/trainer firstly (and there is a huge split in the breed and a noticeable one even in the field lines between gundoogs and field trial dogs) I think Firepower was right on in his last post in the "Training question" thread and he obviously knows the trainers and dogs of whom he speaks. As this thread seems to be slanted(at least at this stage) toward labs I will focus on my experience there. Ok first admitedly I have not bred labs since the mid-late 70s the dogs I and my family before me bred came from some great "old" line field dogs and they were what I would see as a middle of the road dog(by todays standard) they did well in trials and in the field as both upland and water fowl dogs. Some were a bit "high strung" but all were very bideable. They were a mid size dog with bitches around 60-65 lbs and males about 10-15 lbs heavier. That being said I have trainned a fair amount of labs of all persuasions as personal gundogs since then. And I basicly agree with what has been said about the "split" In my oppinion the best dog for the novice trainer/hunter is that middle of the road dog with the high degree of desire minus the extra drive needed for the greatness in field trials. The ones that you do not need to coax the hunt out of them BUT don't "out run" their brains either. I can truthfully say that I have never had a "wash out" lab be they Show, Field Trial, Gundog or a mix of the types(I wish I could say the same for some of the other breeds included Springers) I approch my training the same be they Spaniels or Retrievers in otherwords I train for versitility and to produce "alround flushing/retriever" personal gundogs. The style which I have found most effective in this is the "British gundog trainer" method that was used by Ken Roebuck (Gundog training Spaniels and Retrievers-videos and books available through Cabelas) I have found his (and other Brit trainers) method the one that almost anyone with a feel for a dog can use to produce a decent personal gundog.
This is only my oppinion and what has worked tried and true for me and the kind of dogs I strive to turn out.

[835]

LabGuy,
I have beem pm'ing a bit with Kasomor. I think i know where i am mixing it up a bit. Hunt test vs Feild trial. I guess I am trying to incorporate Brittish dog vs American dog as well. And the disposition of the Brittish dog is what i like, slower and methodical. Which wouldnt work for Feild trials as well as it would work for hunt test. Im just trying to put too many things in a nut shell.

Vancouver Island Retriever Club,,,,? Is that the one on the back of Bever lake? if not where is it?

Foxton, You know im not slanted! but yup my thread is a bit slanted. I just dont wnat these guys to know im stuck between Springer and lab! they might not help me then!
And as quoted above

"In my oppinion the best dog for the novice trainer/hunter is that middle of the road dog with the high degree of desire minus the extra drive needed for the greatness in field trials"

This is what im trying to figure out, I am not a perfect trainer but im not unexperianced either. Although i am uneducated in terms and uses. But you have definatlly hit it with i want the best hunting dog without all the extras, i want to train the best hunting dog. I dont have a tonne of extra time in my life to train for competition although i am not unopen to the idea of trying when i can.
Why i tend to Firepowers side is his disposition towards a gun dog. Although his ideas may sound old school per say i think he is where i am at for a dog. This is why i like to hear from all sides, Take a bit from everyone!