Training compromise

[835]

To not hyjack Elk Lake Trappers thread " Training question " I thought id start this.

First, I do not see myself as a pro trainer, just a hunter more so my dog Chase has some issues i could have fixed if i knew more. What i am looking for here is conversation between Trainer and Hunter Re dogs for both reasons and their training.

My Dog is a Feild dog from "West Coast Retrievers" Cobble hill. My dads dog is a "Brittish block head" From Cedar Brea. Both are well bread but bread for 2 entirely different reasons. One is bread to compete and one is bred to hunt. Chase is the Feild dog and Piper is the hunter. I hope to find similarity in training or good reason to choose a way.

Chase is 6 and is fast, and admitantly i have trouble with this. He is a most unbelieveable retriever though, he has never let me down other then a few times when he was young. But to sit in a blind with him is a nightmare, all he sees is red his drive makes him incontainable.

Piper is 1 and is slow but very methodical. She settles right down even at 1. She is pretty yong yet to have her proove herself. She is easy to handle and control. And if the way she goes after bird wings is any indication of how she will be, she will be great.

I will soon be getting a new dog and wish to train it proper, maybe even try to "Compete" with it on a very "Beer league" way.

Kasomor, Even though we have clashed at times i do take what you say seriously, As well as Jimsue. I have chatted via PM with Lotsa labs as well and she has helped moderate me!

Wonder if i asked a question after all this? Wonder if it was enough to spur conversation? Feild dog or slow dog?

[Elk Lake Trapper]

835, no worries, great thread to start. I'm looking forward to the discussion. My lab is calm and handles easily, and your description of Piper fits my dog. As a guy who is new to gundog training, I'm looking for an end product (if there really is an end- work in progress seems more appropriate) that will hunt and flush September blue grouse on the fraser breaks, be a valuable team member in October pothole jump shoots, and will take on canadas in a hay field situation in November. based on my reading and research I'm on the right path.

If in a couple of years Juno can return for doubles, maybe a triple, work hard to scent and find those wingshot blues, have good steadyness, and mark falling mallards in a quick shoot. I'll be happy and will continue to develop from there.

To date, and a year into the development of my dog, I am using the training methodologies for basic obedience and trial dog development as described, but I am wondering if there is a line to draw when it comes to the skill development necessary for a ribbon winning Trials dog.

On a crappy note, she cut her pad yesterday, playing in the front pasture. She's at the vet but surgery will fix her up and we will be back at it in 2-3 weeks.

All your comments are welcomed, it is how I've been learning.

[835]

That is what i am trying to get at. There is a differance in dogs. I am going to get help on the next dog. I know i am not the greatest trainer but i am a good hunter. I have never "Forced" a dog. my uncle ,my dad and I were talking about this on the weekend. None of us find it required to train a good gun dog if the gun dog is stable. By this i mean a none high strung dog. I think some training methods like this are directed to the lab that the Feild guys have created. As well i think Firepower is a bit old school but his end product is more what i am looking for.

I'm a bird guy i want a bird dog.
And i just didnt want to totally de-rail your thread. It in the end brought up some debate for me that could go so awry from where you were going! I hope we all will learn.

[greenhorn]

For those of us that don't know, could someone define the difference between the field dog and the hunter?

[835]

Looks: The feild lab is lean with a streamlined head, "Hunter" a term i coined, its not official by any means are the "Brittish" block heads. They are the square block heads.
Attitude: Feild dogs are bread for speed, they are bread to get the job done fast. The blockhead is bread to be stable, calm down in a blind.

Another thing, with feild dogs they bread the coat out of the dog so they are a bit more prone to cold.

[Kasomor]

"Some day on a new thread this is exactly something i would like to discuss. As politly as possible of course
Because i dont think you are right. But i do admit i am no Expert, I just have an opinion. And opinions can be changed under the right education.

The trouble is, people have to put down the passion and explain them selves. I find And i mean no harm with this but you Competition guys are pretty head strong kinda like me. "

I say that training a Hunt Test or a Field Trial dog is the same as training a hunting dog because it is.

YES, it diverages at the advanced level but basics and transition training are the same. The majority of hunters don't care if their dog cheats the bank, takes 14 casts to get to the bird, etc... they just want the chickens brought home....which is great, really. However, some do care so if you want a better trained dog more capable of bringing the birds back train sequentially by the book....so to speak.

But don't believe me, I'm no expert, but this guy is and if he says it I believe it.
http://www.totalretriever.com/index....=72&Itemid=102

Actually the vast majority of proven training programs say the exact same thing too.

[labguy]

To not hyjack Elk Lake Trappers thread " Training question " I thought id start this.

First, I do not see myself as a pro trainer, just a hunter more so my dog Chase has some issues i could have fixed if i knew more. What i am looking for here is conversation between Trainer and Hunter Re dogs for both reasons and their training.

My Dog is a Feild dog from "West Coast Retrievers" Cobble hill. My dads dog is a "Brittish block head" From Cedar Brea. Both are well bread but bread for 2 entirely different reasons. One is bread to compete and one is bred to hunt. Chase is the Feild dog and Piper is the hunter. I hope to find similarity in training or good reason to choose a way.

Chase is 6 and is fast, and admitantly i have trouble with this. He is a most unbelieveable retriever though, he has never let me down other then a few times when he was young. But to sit in a blind with him is a nightmare, all he sees is red his drive makes him incontainable.

Piper is 1 and is slow but very methodical. She settles right down even at 1. She is pretty yong yet to have her proove herself. She is easy to handle and control. And if the way she goes after bird wings is any indication of how she will be, she will be great.

I will soon be getting a new dog and wish to train it proper, maybe even try to "Compete" with it on a very "Beer league" way.

Kasomor, Even though we have clashed at times i do take what you say seriously, As well as Jimsue. I have chatted via PM with Lotsa labs as well and she has helped moderate me!

Wonder if i asked a question after all this? Wonder if it was enough to spur conversation? Feild dog or slow dog?

Labs are bred to retrieve. Whether they compete or hunt or do both, should be the choice of the person who buys them.

The two main distinctions in breeding Labradors is for "show" or for "field". Many of the show type dogs do not (usually) do very well as competative retrievers ( and some are not even suitable to hunt with) because less attention has been paid to their natural instinct and ability and more attention has been given to how they look.

Field bred labs tend to be more competative and have a higher retrieving desire. They do tend to be more high energy, making them more of a challenge to the amature or unskilled trainer. Most, when properly trained, and because of this high desire, make excellent gun dogs.The down side of many field bred labs is that not as much attention is paid (when breeding) to things like coat, tail, phycial structure etc.

The above is a fairly broad generalization but should give you an idea of the differences and similarities.


There are some breeders that breed for both looks and ability. Cedar Brae is one that (in my opinion) does this well. I like the dogs I've seen that Cedar Brae produces. They are both competative and have that classic Labrador "look" with the blockier heads and thicker coats.

I have field bred labs because I enjoy competing, however both of my field dogs hunt with me all season long. They are competative at field trials but are also very good in the duck blind or hunting pheasants.

I think you are overthinking this a bit. I'd suggest you first learn how to properly train a retriever. Once you have these skills you can (depending on the natural abilities of the particular pup you chose) probably do both hunting and competition successfully.

Living on Vancouver Island you are extemely fortunate to have access to some of the best and most successful retriever trainers in the country. If you approach them with a willingness to listen and learn, you will absorb a lot of good information.

Some of these people may be able to put you onto some good breedings (non advertised) that will more than serve your needs should you decide to just hunt or be competative or do both.

Lots o Labs would be a good place to start.

Good luck,

[Kasomor]

Beyond my last post I'm confused 835

Do you want to talk about the merits of field bred labs versus show bred.

Both of which would/ could/ may suit your average hunter.

Think it is the title of the thread that is confusing me.

[835]

advanced level[/U] but basics and transition training are the same.

.

I d think the training is the same, And fully aggree some people want more from a dog for competition. But do you see a major difference in Drive between the dogs i am talking about? Not speed but a drive to complete the task.

I hope you understand my laymens terms Feild and Block head. Im at a bit of a loss to explaine it better. Im not talking show dog or poor bread Lab.

[greenhorn]

Looks: The feild lab is lean with a streamlined head, "Hunter" a term i coined, its not official by any means are the "Brittish" block heads. They are the square block heads.
Attitude: Feild dogs are bread for speed, they are bread to get the job done fast. The blockhead is bread to be stable, calm down in a blind.

Another thing, with feild dogs they bread the coat out of the dog so they are a bit more prone to cold.

Thanks, that was my guess but I wasn't sure. My dog is a golden/labrador cross. We once had someone tell us, based on his looks and build, that he was likely from a "field" line of dogs. They then told us that they take longer to mature and have crazy energy. So far they're right