Training Question

[Jimsue]

This is just my oppinion..... you are doing fairly advanced drills with a weak sounding foundation, force hold and force fetch are your foundation, no foundation gives you a shaky house. Fetch means fetch, you cant make your dog fetch a bumper so what r u going to do when she decides not to fetch a bird one day? Slow down and back up a few steps, you asked the question, this is just my oppinion, good luck.

[FirePower]

x 3 on loosing the balls..........hmmm, that doesn't sound right.

Make it just as much fun fetching ducks/ birds as it has been fetching balls.

It's all a game retreiving...bumpers and birds. I'd use just birds and as you need to get rid of them cut the wings off and attached to the bumpers.

My youngest is now 4 and has NEVER has a stick thrown for her. EVER. We don't own tennis balls either.

Just loose the balls....still doesn't sound right.

AND why do people think that the family dog shouldn't play with the kids? Who cares. Dogs are situational. My dogs don't listen to family members unless it involves food. They listen to me.

Sounds like you are on the right track with your girl

As I have been the only one to mention anything about playing with the kids I assume that you misinterprited what I said, if not I appologize in advance. I did not say the dogs shouldnt play with the kids we played with all Da's dogs it was part of socializing but we were in peril of our butts to throw things for the dogs.kids losse intrest and may not make a dog follow through properly kids dont usually care what they throw, balls, sticks etc.It was part of training, the fun the dogs had with their trainer and it was done "properly" with "proper" equipment. That was all I was saying.

[FirePower]

This is just my oppinion..... you are doing fairly advanced drills with a weak sounding foundation, force hold and force fetch are your foundation, no foundation gives you a shaky house. Fetch means fetch, you cant make your dog fetch a bumper so what r u going to do when she decides not to fetch a bird one day? Slow down and back up a few steps, you asked the question, this is just my oppinion, good luck.

I agreewith a good foundation, however I do not agree that a dog needs to be "force broke" and if it does maybe it is not gundog quality That is an "American" thing you will not find any of the old school British trainers use the method and they produce some amazing dogs. It is compliance by pain or at least irritation and not for the love of the game. If you have a dog bred to hunt and lay the foundation properly with early play evolving to serious work then a refusial is not very likely to ever happen. 2 cultures, to schools of thought on which trainers ahve agreed to dissagree on for years. I know there will be lots that disagree with me and can quote trainers to "prove" me wrong and thats fine we allhave one thing in common our love of hunting and dogs, just my upbringing and my oppinion.

[Jimsue]

Different training method for different game, not many FT dogs over here that have not been through a force program of some type. Not many quads with 3 retired guns or 400yrd blinds in the UK. Again its a different game. If the dogs their were better I would have brought one back with me, but they dont have the drive required to win here......just my oppinion

[FirePower]

I'm not going to argue that point it is a diffrent game and depends what you want, the OP never said anything about field trials and I was responding to that. I agree that field trial dogs and personal gundogs have diffrent atributes BUT to be fair you cant say "if their dogs were better" they are great dogs just not what you are looking for and what you want is probably not what I want, doesn't make either better just diffrent in their purpose.
AND I respect your oppinion it seems a knowledgeable one well expressed.

[835]

I'm not going to argue that point it is a diffrent game and depends what you want, the OP never said anything about field trials and I was responding to that. I agree that field trial dogs and personal gundogs have diffrent atributes BUT to be fair you cant say "if their dogs were better" they are great dogs just not what you are looking for and what you want is probably not what I want, doesn't make either better just diffrent in their purpose.
AND I respect your oppinion it seems a knowledgeable one well expressed.

Wholly FirePower, Way to put that in a nutshell!
I am with you here, Jimsue said it "Drive to win" It is his game. Great game dont get me wrong but im not racing!

Jimsue, Dont get me wrong i just think Firepower is talkin my talk

[Kasomor]

As I have been the only one to mention anything about playing with the kids I assume that you misinterprited what I said, if not I appologize in advance. I did not say the dogs shouldnt play with the kids we played with all Da's dogs it was part of socializing but we were in peril of our butts to throw things for the dogs.kids losse intrest and may not make a dog follow through properly kids dont usually care what they throw, balls, sticks etc.It was part of training, the fun the dogs had with their trainer and it was done "properly" with "proper" equipment. That was all I was saying.

Settle down. The OP said, "I have kids at home, and she plays with them all the time. I know this may not be desirable, but its the way it is and she's a family dog too."

Therefore the OP has heard this before you posted. Old-timers tend to think along the lines of don't let the kids play with/ throw things for the dog that it will ruin the dog. From your post your father felt that way too.

I posted "Dogs are situational. My dogs don't listen to family members unless it involves food. They listen to me."

I have rules such as no balls or sticks but bumpers and toys are fair game. Just don't leave the bumpers lying around cause I don't want them chewed up. I don't care if the dog brings in back to anyone else, the dog knows it MUST bring it back to me. Same with line manners or any other training.

My family may well tell one of the dogs to "sit" 4 or 5 times before the dogs actually listens to them. I tell them once and get compliance. It's like that for everything.

At the moment one of my hunting / Senior Hunter dogs is on a run in Open obedience. Qualified 6 for 6 with 6 High in Classes.

Soooooooo.......I don't buy that kids shouldn't throw stuff for their dog or tell the dog what to do since the child may not have the knowledge to get compliance because it messes the dog up when the dog is with the "trainer."

[Elk Lake Trapper]

This is good conversation folks, and I appreciate all of it. I just wish that we were sittin' on our tailgates with beverage in hand after watching our dogs work. My experience with dogs is limited to family pets who were really good "bush dogs" I took with me to work in the bush. Good meant come when called, stay within sight, don't chase deer, and for gawd's sake don't bring a bear back without warning me.

Training a decent gun dog is something I have always wanted to do, and between books (10 minute retriever) websites, and conversations, I have learned enough to realize that:

a) I don't know very much,
b) My dog sometimes acts exactly like the described dogs in the material and sometimes I need to figure out why she won't or isn't
c) I understand why some guys have 2 dogs 4 yrs apart - they always want a good one that works!
d) I am enjoying the whole thing and I know she's going to wish I could shoot better, and
e) 12 year old boys, a .410, and spruce grouse in a road ditch are great training aids that no one ever mentions!

As for foundation, from an obedience perspective, this dog is better than any dog I have ever owned. Mostly because I have worked with her in a more structured manner than any other dog I have had.

From a force fetch and force hold, the force hold lessons went very well, and she understands what I want. I (and she) struggled with the force fetch. I think it was because it was not pleasant for either of us, and once she understood that when i send her I expect something to come back, I moved on. Maybe a mistake, but we will see.

The hockey ball thing was totally my boys. Completely unstructured, and a ton of fun for all involved. However, I think that she looked at the balls as the fun, and the dummies as work, and tried to quit the dummies. I then switched to the balls, and explained to the boys why I had hidden every one they had, and please don't throw them for her for a while. They understood - see comments about boys and fool hens above.

The hint about grouse wings zap strapped to a dummy - that worked really well. And I've been using it the last few nights. We are moving forward again.

Please keep commenting and throwing your stuff on this thread, every comment has given me, and hopefully others, food for thought and use.

Hugh

[Kasomor]

You might want to check out this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyADU...&feature=share

While I do not have Bill Hillman's Fetch Command or E-collar DVDs, I do have his Puppy DVD and really like his methods.

I believe Bill has the most Derby points (dogs under two years old) in history...FT folks help me out here ...so he knows what he is talking about.

And training "just" a hunting dog is the same as training a Field Trial or Hunt Test dog.

[835]

And training "just" a hunting dog is the same as training a Field Trial or Hunt Test dog.

Some day on a new thread this is exactly something i would like to discuss. As politly as possible of course
Because i dont think you are right. But i do admit i am no Expert, I just have an opinion. And opinions can be changed under the right education.

The trouble is, people have to put down the passion and explain them selves. I find And i mean no harm with this but you Competition guys are pretty head strong kinda like me.