Non-Breeding Contracts

[Clint_S]

I was going to add this to the designer breed thread but is already well along in it's hijacking
I've been on both sides of the fence on the breeding contract issue and my current position on Non Breeding Certificates. I LOVE THEM!
The first point I want to make clear is a NBC does not preclude breeding a bitch and having hundreds of pups if that's your goal it just means those pups will not join the registry.
A breeder has very little control over how a dog is raised, trained or treated once it is out of your hands. One thing you can control in a small degree is the genetic pool of your registered breed of choice. Lets face it, most dog owners are guilty of looking at their dogs through rose coloured glasses especially non working breeds. It seems the more worthless or far removed from it's intended role the dog is the more $ it's pups will command but that's another thread.
First of all try as we might as breeders not every dog is breeding material. There has to be some way to control these genetic culls and a NBC is perfect. They may be fine pets or have an outstanding character trait but just don't merit breeding.
Usually you can spot the person who absolutely requires a NBC right off because they will start talking about breeding before the pup is even house trained never mind proven it's worth as breeding stock.
Standards to remove a NBC will vary but cost only $15 to reverse. I have mine and they will differ from others. Some will be judged merely on looks which is why official registries can be a death knell for working breeds.
I could say more but will leave it there for now.

[labguy]

I was going to add this to the designer breed thread but is already well along in it's hijacking
I've been on both sides of the fence on the breeding contract issue and my current position on Non Breeding Certificates. I LOVE THEM!
The first point I want to make clear is a NBC does not preclude breeding a bitch and having hundreds of pups if that's your goal it just means those pups will not join the registry.
A breeder has very little control over how a dog is raised, trained or treated once it is out of your hands. One thing you can control in a small degree is the genetic pool of your registered breed of choice. Lets face it, most dog owners are guilty of looking at their dogs through rose coloured glasses especially non working breeds. It seems the more worthless or far removed from it's intended role the dog is the more $ it's pups will command but that's another thread.
First of all try as we might as breeders not every dog is breeding material. There has to be some way to control these genetic culls and a NBC is perfect. They may be fine pets or have an outstanding character trait but just don't merit breeding.
Usually you can spot the person who absolutely requires a NBC right off because they will start talking about breeding before the pup is even house trained never mind proven it's worth as breeding stock.
Standards to remove a NBC will vary but cost only $15 to reverse. I have mine and they will differ from others. Some will be judged merely on looks which is why official registries can be a death knell for working breeds.
I could say more but will leave it there for now.

All very good points however............your still trying to legislate and regulate responsible breeding by trying to police people.

Honorable, responsible and well informed people will do the right thing regardless of codes of ethics, non breeding agreements or legislation.

I really hate the idea of someone (who probably knows a lot less than I do)telling me what I can and can't do with my dog.

And again, I want to make the point about how some breeders will use this non breeding clause to insure a tigher market place so they can sell these so called "rare breed dogs" at some ridiculously inflated price...........I could site specific examples but I will control that urge.............for now.

[Camp Cook]

labguy very well said I totally agree...

[Kasomor]

All very good points however............your still trying to legislate and regulate responsible breeding by trying to police people.

Honorable, responsible and well informed people will do the right thing regardless of codes of ethics, non breeding agreements or legislation.

I really hate the idea of someone (who probably knows a lot less than I do)telling me what I can and can't do with my dog.

Do you wear your seat belt? Pay taxes? Oh my, that's the government telling you what to do.

You're also a CKC Member. How can you belong to that group of nit-witts? That what you called YOUR club? Does that make you a nit wit? Are you a member of the lab club? WHY? Are they a bunch of nit wits too?

So enlighten us...how would YOU ensure that a pup you bred has all health clearances done, is an excellent example of the bred, correct temperament, is not being bred to some mutt down the road, resulting pups aren't being dumped at a shelter, etc..before they are bred? Or do you believe that every dog with nuts or a uterus should be bred? Do you even care?


AND no one is trying to tell you what you can and can't do with your dog. Oh, maybe the AR people but that's another kettle of fist. Don't buy from a breeder who is trying to get you to do something you don't agree with. Labs are a dime a dozen go to a breeder who sees things the same way you do.

[Steeleco]

This thread will also get closed if it turns into an argument. Play nice!

[Ed.R.Lee]

Education, acceptance and practice should always precede regulations.

Over on the other side of Pacific Ocean where I am, I have taken part in rehoming of unwanted dogs. It's useless to include varied terms in a contract. Instead, we do random background checks and interviews to have a good feel of the potential dog owner before we even sign the contract. Over my course of voluntary work, I have discovered;

A. Couple whose previous dogs fought among themselves when being locked in the bathroom whenever the owner goes to work. Resulted in the death of two out of four dogs they owned. The third was the alpha dog and the fourth was suffering from the bite wounds infection.

B. A boyfriend who wanted to a dog as a surprise birthday gift for his girl, he couldn't give me good answers when I probed further. What's going to happen (to the dog) if you guys break up? What if she doesn't like the dog?

C. A potential dog owner whom I have uncovered to have hidden behind various online identities, adopting dogs for free and reselling them at a ridiculous price.

The thing is, prevention is always better than enforcement. If the breeder has done his/her due diligence, it will tell you if a person is out for breeding or solely as pets/working partners. For me, I always prefer tighter rules with regards to breeders. Particularly, unlicensed backyard breeders. It's also a danger to the potential buyers (of getting cheated) because they don't know how to "check" their dogs.

I have two dogs now, used to be three until my Shetland Sheepdog (sheltie) passed away. All of them adopted instead of buying from breeders. Even as I spoke to various sheltie breeders in Australia and Scotland, they are extremely careful with who purchases the puppies.

If the breeder ain't satisfied, don't sell. If the buyer ain't satisfied, don't buy. It's simple as that.

[kinderdoggin]

I'm with Clint on this one. Our pups used to be sold with no limitations but we have since gone to non-breeding contracts on most, but not all, puppies sold.

I think our agreement is very fair - if I don't know you, you haven't bought a pup from me before, and/or you aren't already competing or breeding dogs, then the pup is sold on a reversible non-breeding agreement. The reversal conditions are set out in the original contract- once the dog has received OFA hip, elbow and CERF eye clearances, the contract is reversed. The price for all pups, whether they go to a competition/breeding home with full rights or as a hunting dog/pet with a non-breeding agreement, is the same.

I don't like the idea of being involved any further than that. I would certainly have no problem buying a dog sold on the same conditions I offer, but wouldn't want to bother if the breeder was going to have to 'approve' of any potential mates, etc. There is a certain amount of emotional 'letting go' that is required to be a breeder <edited to add: pre-screening of puppy buyers is part of the process, I'm not suggesting that you should 'let go' of a puppy to just anyone! I'm referring to 'letting go' of the control over the puppies that are sold, trust being already established through the discussions leading up to the purchase.> It seems with the rarer breeds more stringent conditions are quite common but it wouldn't normal, at least in my experience, to have a lot of 'breeder meddling' with field Labs. Interest and assistance,if requested - yes, control -no.

MHO,
Erin

[Barracuda]

if you dont want the dog bred spay or neuter it before you sell it , stop asking disgusting prices for dogs that cannot be bred (by contract or surgery) and do whats best fro the breed and not the pocket book.

To have a non breeding contract can be a rather nasty practice and haveing that sort of power to lord over someone seems rather dictatorial.

[labguy]

Do you wear your seat belt? Pay taxes? Oh my, that's the government telling you what to do.

You're also a CKC Member. How can you belong to that group of nit-witts? That what you called YOUR club? Does that make you a nit wit? Are you a member of the lab club? WHY? Are they a bunch of nit wits too?

So enlighten us...how would YOU ensure that a pup you bred has all health clearances done, is an excellent example of the bred, correct temperament, is not being bred to some mutt down the road, resulting pups aren't being dumped at a shelter, etc..before they are bred? Or do you believe that every dog with nuts or a uterus should be bred? Do you even care?


AND no one is trying to tell you what you can and can't do with your dog. Oh, maybe the AR people but that's another kettle of fist. Don't buy from a breeder who is trying to get you to do something you don't agree with. Labs are a dime a dozen go to a breeder who sees things the same way you do.

Wow..........your just like me.......except female.........it's like having a girl twin.

The answer to your questions (although I'm not too sure you really want an answer) is that I can't insure every aspect my puppies futures.....and neither can you with your non breeding agreements.

Non breeding agreements are only as good as the people who subscribe to them.

You cannot and you never will legislate or regulate decent human behaviors.

And as far as the CKC is concerned........they unfortunately are a necessary evil if you want to compete with your dogs as they are really the only game in town.............

I belong to a retriever club (not the lab club) so I can give back to the sport by chairing and assisting in putting on events, seminars (like the one you were at) and helping people who want to learn this game..........It's about furthering the use of trained retreivers for hunting, competitions and as good canine companions in the field.

Time to call a truce now............I'm done.....................unless a thread on why breeders want so much for their Tollers comes up. .Then I just wouldn't be able to resisit..........

[kinderdoggin]

Spaying or neutering a puppy at 8 weeks? Yuck. That's a whole 'nother can of worms.

In many cases, a non-breeding agreement is NOT necessarily the end of the dog's breeding career, it is just a means to ensure that a minimum set of requirements are met before the dog is bred (such as a minimum age or health clearances). If you don't like those terms, then look elsewhere for a dog. Having a non-breeding agreement reversed, as Clint mentioned, is not expensive. Whether or not there is a hassle depends on the specifics of the contract and the nature of the parties involved I guess.

As with anything else, everybody has an opinion on how to do things 'right'. Even the different breeders on HBC all have a different idea of how puppies should be raised, under what conditions they should be sold, what makes an ideal dog, etc. Variety is a good thing. It means that there are puppies available as competition prospects, for people looking for a hunting dog, show dog, or pet. Not everybody is looking for the same qualities in a dog (or breeder, for that matter). Find a breeder whose vision of an ideal dog is the same as yours and then go from there.

FWIW, just because a dog is sold on a non-breeding agreement doesn't mean
a) you must have it fixed
b) you can never breed it
c) the breeder is controlling your dog's life
unless there are other conditions attached that indicate this. Just be sure you know if the agreement is reversible, and if so, under what conditions. And if you plan to breed, it's always a good idea to tell the breeder right off the bat to get the discussion rolling.



~Erin