River Boats ?? !!

[Dirty]

Find this extremely hard to comprehend. I also have looked at Firefish hard, and the workmanship is excellent. I too would like to know what you found that you didn't like. I own an Outlaw which is considered one of the top boats up here, and I would take a Firefish any day over an Outlaw. Some VERY experienced boaters in Northern BC have switched to Firefish. Check their website like I said. I've not seen a single negative word spoken about their boats. Can't say the same about Harbercraft.??:

Did I say anything about Harbercraft?


The Firefish I saw apparently porpoised badly. They welded trim tabs on to the back of the hull and cut partially through the welds on the back of the hull so the trim tabs could "flex". Bush league job done with a skillsaw by the looks of it, and any company that would let a product come out of their small factory like that does not deserve my respect. It's not like they are a big company and can't oversee the quality of their work.

From what i have heard, Shuman has a long waiting list, that speaks volumes. I would hazard to guess that 90% of the boats you see in Northern Rivers are of the El-De (Shuman), Outlaw, or Alicraft.

Look at Riddle Marine out of the US too, Riverjet Adventures our site sponsor got a small one last year, and just bought a new bigger Riddle to replace his old Westcan boat this year. If he is happy enough to buy a second, they must build a sturdy boat. From what I have heard, they are really reasonably priced compared to Canadian manufacturers.

[lunatic]

Did I say anything about Harbercraft?


The Firefish I saw apparently porpoised badly. They welded trim tabs on to the back of the hull and cut partially through the welds on the back of the hull so the trim tabs could "flex". Bush league job done with a skillsaw by the looks of it, and any company that would let a product come out of their small factory like that does not deserve my respect. It's not like they are a big company and can't oversee the quality of their work.

From what i have heard, Shuman has a long waiting list, that speaks volumes. I would hazard to guess that 90% of the boats you see in Northern Rivers are of the El-De (Shuman), Outlaw, or Alicraft.

Look at Riddle Marine out of the US too, Riverjet Adventures our site sponsor got a small one last year, and just bought a new bigger Riddle to replace his old Westcan boat this year. If he is happy enough to buy a second, they must build a sturdy boat. From what I have heard, they are really reasonably priced compared to Canadian manufacturers.

Never said YOU did mention Harbercraft did I? As for the Firefish butcherjob I would have to say that is an anomoly because I have seen nothing but quality work and attention to detail on their boats. I imagine that the majority of boats seen in the North are from manufactures that you mentioned because they have been around for years. Firefish has only been in business for a couple of years and the guys that started it were longtime Outlaw employees. All i'm saying is that IMHO Firefish makes an excellent boat. I would hate for someone not to check them out because one person saw something that we probably don't know the full story on. Porpoising is a problem with many boats( depending on the style) and can be easily corrected. I live 2 mins from a busy boat launch in Northern BC and there are a lot of longtime riverboaters up here that are switching to Firefish boats.

[Dirty]

Never said YOU did mention Harbercraft did I? As for the Firefish butcherjob I would have to say that is an anomoly because I have seen nothing but quality work and attention to detail on their boats. I imagine that the majority of boats seen in the North are from manufactures that you mentioned because they have been around for years. Firefish has only been in business for a couple of years and the guys that started it were longtime Outlaw employees. All i'm saying is that IMHO Firefish makes an excellent boat. I would hate for someone not to check them out because one person saw something that we probably don't know the full story on. Porpoising is a problem with many boats( depending on the style) and can be easily corrected. I live 2 mins from a busy boat launch in Northern BC and there are a lot of longtime riverboaters up here that are switching to Firefish boats.

Oh I also forgot another thing about the boat I looked at. It was almost brand new <30 hours, and it leaked. All boats with plastic will leak sooner or later, but a brand new boat leaking, is pretty unreasonable. I have only looked at one, but it was enough to sour my opinion of them.

I would really like to look at these Riddles that Kevin from Riverjet is running. I heard they were really reasonably priced compared to some of these Canadian builders, and will build to suit. With the dollar so strong, it would be a good time to buy down south.

Also, if I were to run teflon, I would go with High Calibers "weld-on" system. It is far superior to conventional "bolt-on" teflon. No leaking, and easily repaired without removing the engine/.

[killman]

this day was fun and then it sucked for about 1 hour then got fun again.

linky no worky!

[lunatic]

Oh I also forgot another thing about the boat I looked at. It was almost brand new <30 hours, and it leaked. All boats with plastic will leak sooner or later, but a brand new boat leaking, is pretty unreasonable. I have only looked at one, but it was enough to sour my opinion of them.

I would really like to look at these Riddles that Kevin from Riverjet is running. I heard they were really reasonably priced compared to some of these Canadian builders, and will build to suit. With the dollar so strong, it would be a good time to buy down south.

Also, if I were to run teflon, I would go with High Calibers "weld-on" system. It is far superior to conventional "bolt-on" teflon. No leaking, and easily repaired without removing the engine/.

On the subject of Teflon, here are some interesting facts quoted from a popular riverboat forum:



This was a big concern for me as well upon ordering my new plastic lined boat. With the myriad of plastics out there I too wanted to be sure I used the right (BEST) product possible to line the bottom of my boat. I'll share my research. Keep in mind I'm have a degree in engineering, my wife is a practicing professional engineer and I own an engineering company - so this might get technical and boring for some…

My research really came down to UHMW and various "Tivar" products which are aka "titanium" or "Teflon" products. Other products are sometimes brought up but the discussion always seems to come back to Teflon vs. UHMW - so I'll keep it simple and stick with that comparison. (all findings are based on standardized ASTM tests)

The following properties/standards are virtually identical:
Absorption (relevant)
Resistivity (relevant)
Melt Point (relevant)
Hardness (relevant)
Elasticity (Youngs Modulus) (not really relevant)

The following properties/standards have some variance:
Tensile Strength: UHMW 730 MPa, Teflon 818 MPa - Teflon has a clear lead here, but is that relevant? I say no. Both have VERY high tensile strength and I believe abrasion resistance should be the focus. For the application we’re discussing, tensile strength isn’t relevant.

Yield Strength: UHMW 22 MPa, Teflon 19.1 MPa – again, Teflon is a “stronger” material as a structural member, but again, that’s not relevant in an application bolted to the bottom of a jet boat.

Coefficient of Friction: UMHW .16 static .14 dynamic, Teflon .16 static .08 dynamic – So Teflon has a lower dynamic COF - but again, not relevant. Both are ridiculously more frictionless than aluminum. The slight variation between UHMW and Teflon is negligible. One topic I have not heard discussed is the lack of friction being a problem… Boats rely on a certain amount of friction to be controllable… Another topic for another day – not relevant for this UHMW vs. Teflon discussion.

Coefficient of Thermal Expansion: UHMW .000089, Teflon .000110, Aluminum .000023 – Now here is something you should be concerned about. In short, these numbers demonstrate Teflon will expand and contract with temperature change at a rate of 5 times that of Aluminum while UHMW will do so by at a rate of just 2.5 times. From this we know UHMW has more similar expansion and contraction properties as aluminum and will result in much smaller stresses generated from the two materials being permanently joined together. In fact, I’d be very concerned the Teflon (or Aluminum) over many years would generate shear cracks (failure) due to repeated temperature changes. (just putting your boat in the water could easily be a 50 degree F change of temperature) UHMW is the clear winner here.

Cost: you’d be remiss if you didn’t account for the fact Teflon cost at least three times as much as UHMW.

Durability: Non-standardized testing shows UHMW is upwards of 30 times more durable than Teflon. I could not find any ASTM test for UHMW but a sampling of plastics purveyors (which offer both products) all concur UHMW is considerably more durable.

In my opinion, the discussion ends here based on the facts UHMW is far more durable, equal or superior on the other attributes that are relevant, and far less expensive.

[Dirty]

I use the terms incorrectly, but interchangeably. I have only heard of people putting UHMW on. Great information to know about the two.

I have a question for you, since you are an engineer, and all learned and such.

UHMW is buoyant; however, UHMW is also heavy. Some people do not like the weight of the UHMW on larger boats. Some, say that because it is buoyant, it is negligible. However, what about when up on step, when a majority of the boat is out of the water, except for the pad? In addition, what are the friction coefficient differences between UHMW and aluminum in water applications?

[lunatic]

I use the terms incorrectly, but interchangeably. I have only heard of people putting UHMW on. Great information to know about the two.

I have a question for you, since you are an engineer, and all learned and such.

UHMW is buoyant; however, UHMW is also heavy. Some people do not like the weight of the UHMW on larger boats. Some, say that because it is buoyant, it is negligible. However, what about when up on step, when a majority of the boat is out of the water, except for the pad? In addition, what are the friction coefficient differences between UHMW and aluminum in water applications?

Whoa there pilgrim.....you must have missed this part:


On the subject of Teflon, here are some interesting facts quoted from a popular riverboat forum:



I'm sure no engineer!

[Dirty]

Whoa there pilgrim.....you must have missed this part:


On the subject of Teflon, here are some interesting facts quoted from a popular riverboat forum:



I'm sure no engineer!

I suffer mild ******ation 24/7/365. Plus, you are a plagiarizer.

[lunatic]

Yeah, I guess even though I said it was "quoted" from another source, technically I should have provided a link to that forum. Me bad

[Barracuda]

what forum?