question?

[huntwriter]

I think he's talking about the animal still breathing just paralized so he can't get up to run away.

Marc- belive me a animal with a severed spinal cord is dead the kicking and breathing is nothing more than motor motion but the animal has no feeling its heart is still beating for a few seconds longer but the brain has given up to function. Also there is a lot of blood flowing along the spinal cord meaning the animal will bleed completely out within a minute or two. By the way we kill livestock very much the same way by damaging the brain and spinal cord but keep the heart pumping to aid rapid blood loss. By humans we would refer to that state as "brain dead", which is followed by a complete collapse of the system and finished off trough the rapid loss of blood with a cardiac arrest.

I once shot an arrow into a bucks hindleg, my bowstring got caught up in the tree stand, my hunting budy went pale in the face but I was confident that the buck will pile up within sight of us. Why? because I could see the blood cushing out from the arrow hole and on the other side where the arrow exited in the hind leg there are some major blood vessels running up the inside of the legs and when severed will lead to rapid blood loss a shot like this is as deadly as a double lung shot.

True these are not the shots any hunter in his or her right mind should strive for but they are deadly nontheless. I am by no means try to tell anyone what to do or apear uncaring toward the animals we kill and yes I will admit that it can be very frustrating for a hunter to think that the animal he just shot apears to be still alive, but as I said it is only the nerves acting and yes it can look very real and alive.

[Rob]

You know I have heard it said a few times before that hunters think the animal "still is alive" after they shot it because it still moved. Not only I am a bow hunter for more than 10 years I am also a trained Master Butcher and let me tell you the truth. If you hit an animal in the brain or cut its spinal cord, or shoot trough the lungs and the heart the animal is DEAD. But it will move for up to 10 minutes or sometimes even longer but these are only the nerves. I never shot an animal twice I just wait till they stop kicking and twitching. Belive me there is no need to make the animal more dead then it already is, dead is dead. At the same token some hunters think if an animal runs after a shot for a while that they made a bad shot but it is the same as outlined above they are dead they just don't know it yet.

I disagree, just because you hit/severe a spinal cord with a razor tip/bullet how does that instantly kill a deer???? Will hitting a deer in the spine behind its neck kill a deer with the same quickness as if i hit it in the lower spinal area? I wouldnt think it would. Please explain. Rob

[mark]

Mark. I commend you for not shooting at the neck. I would suggest you take the IBEP (International Bowhunters Education Program) course. It is good for people new to archery as well as old hands. You can always learn a lot of new things.

never heard of this program where duz one find out about it? local archery club i guess?

[Marc]

Mark try google I'm pretty sure there is info on it there.

Marc.

[huntwriter]

I disagree, just because you hit/severe a spinal cord with a razor tip/bullet how does that instantly kill a deer???? Will hitting a deer in the spine behind its neck kill a deer with the same quickness as if i hit it in the lower spinal area? I wouldnt think it would. Please explain. Rob

The spianl cord is to make it simple the main message line between brain and the rest of the body, muscles, organs ect. If this line is broken the body cannot fuction. However you made a valued point, the farther back a spinal cord is severed the less main nerve damage there will be. Lets say you hit an animal in the middle of the back the front still will be fully functional possibly including the lungs and heart the animal only will be paralized in the back quarters possibly including the kidneys, liver and parts of the digestive system. However here we where talking about a neck shot and the spinal cord being severed in that area. A severd spinal cord in the neck will instantly paralize the entire body including all vital organs since all nerves to the body and organs are cut (disconnected) plus there will be a tremdeous blood loss to boost, causing brain death since the brain will not be supplied with oxygen anymore which is followed by death as outlined in an earlier posting, failing of ogans and final cardiac arrest. The collapse of the organs is caused in two ways by the disconection of the nerves from the motor (brain) and trough the loss of blood (oxygen). This sounds like a long process but in fact takes only mere seconds. This is not what I think happens but medical fact.

After I graduated from the Master Butcher School I studied zoology and animal behaviour for five years and a good part of this study was spent on vet.medicine and anatomy.

As I said in my earlier post we as hunters should not strive for such shots but at the same time if they do happen we need not to worry, provided the shot is in the neck or front quarter of the body the animal will expire quickly and painless. But if it makes a hunter feel better then there is most cetainly nothing wrong with shooting the animal again or drill another arrow into it but it will not alter the fact that this will only be a feel good shot, but that's alright too. Part of hunting is to do what feels good and right.

[huntwriter]

never heard of this program where duz one find out about it? local archery club i guess?

Mark- here is the link to the IBEP (International Bowhunter Education Program) which is administered trough the National Bowhunter Foundation a American organization.
http://www.nbef.org/

Here is the address of the IBEB Instructor oF British Columbia:
Core De Boon -IBEP
CO Fort Saint John

phone: (250) 787-3429

However this education program is not very different from what you learned at the CORE course the only difference is that it more about bowhunting in particular and archery plus some international standards.

[J_T]

Huntwriter, so your suggesting that my ex-wife that has a severed spinal cord (C3, 4 & 5) is dead? Hardly!! Keep in mind, C3 is only 2 down from the top. Exactly, EXACTLY, where is that on a deer?

An animal "lives" on the instinct to survive. And it will live if it has to, on 2 legs and 1/2 a lung.

To terminate the life of the animal using a bow, you MUST create deadly heamorhage. Or be extremely lucky.

Bowhunting should never consider death through the nervous system. Only to the cirulatory and respiratory systems. This is not a humble opinion. This is setting the record straight.

The International Bowhunting Eduction Program is an international program put on by the National Bowhunting Education Foundation. There are a number of instructors around the province. The BCAA and the TBBC both have a number of qualified instructors.

JT

[huntwriter]

Huntwriter, so your suggesting that my ex-wife that has a severed spinal cord (C3, 4 & 5) is dead? Hardly!! Keep in mind, C3 is only 2 down from the top. Exactly, EXACTLY, where is that on a deer?

An animal "lives" on the instinct to survive. And it will live if it has to, on 2 legs and 1/2 a lung.

To terminate the life of the animal using a bow, you MUST create deadly heamorhage. Or be extremely lucky.

Bowhunting should never consider death through the nervous system. Only to the cirulatory and respiratory systems. This is not a humble opinion. This is setting the record straight.

The International Bowhunting Eduction Program is an international program put on by the National Bowhunting Education Foundation. There are a number of instructors around the province. The BCAA and the TBBC both have a number of qualified instructors.

JT

JT- First I am very sorry for your former wife and hope she will have a speedy recovery, my prayers are for her.

When I posted my explanation yesterday I acutally was contemplating to write about the difference between a simply severed spinal cord such as trough an accident in a car crash and similar cirumstances and a spinal cord which has been severed with force from the outside such as a sharp broadhead, knife or bullet. But then I thought that I made it quit clear what the cause of death is. Obviously I was wrong and apologize for that.

The disconection of the spinal cord will imobilize the animal. Death is caused by severe loss of blood and that is where the difference is. As your arrow or bullet enters and exits it also will cut the main blood vessels causing a cardiac arrest from exessive loss of blood. If only the spinal cord is disconected then there will be some bleeding to that can add aditional problems but rarely will the patient bleed to death because of it.

As I outlined above in this case death is not caused trough the nervous system but trough the loss of blood the circulatory system. If you are concerned about the pain factor then let me tell you that the imobilization of the nervous system is absolutly painless whereas trough the circulatory system there is much more pain registration. Besides animals are immensely though they can take much more pain until it registers in the brain than we can animals have a very high pain tolerance, in fact they can stand pain that would send you, me and everybody else into shock and coma. However, this shall my no means say that we should not care about inflicting pain to an animal or unnecessary prolong its death.

"Bowhunting should never consider death through the nervous system. Only to the cirulatory and respiratory systems. This is not a humble opinion. This is setting the record straight."

You are right and at no time ever did I suggest to anyone to strive for such a shot if you read my posts I made quit clear that this is not what we want. But it will happen to everyone who hunts long enough. We should strive to be the best we can be but "accidents" will happen sooner or later and it is better if we learn to live with it than to blast each other for something that happend by accident. If possible we should not try to be "holier than thou", especially not to newcomers but make them understand that things can and will go wrong and that this is okay too because we are humans not machines.

"Keep in mind, C3 is only 2 down from the top. Exactly, EXACTLY, where is that on a deer?"
Humans and mammals share the exact same skeleton with the only difference being the size and length of some bones. So to answer this question C3 in also by deer and other mammals on the same place as by humans only a little bigger because deer have longer necks and therefore also longer vertebras. Even a giraffe has the same number of vertebras as we humans.


I hope this answers you question.
huntwriter

[Walksalot]

I would never take a head or neck shot with my bow.