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Thread: southern interior mule deer strategy?

  1. #411
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    Re: southern interior mule deer strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bownut View Post
    How do you know their not? IT'S ALL factored.
    Without a proper response from you on why you think the last 10 years are "poor management due to liberal hunting seasons with more pressure" I think we should just tackle the issues. I was hoping you would provide something to justify or rationalize your posts.


    1) Hunter Numbers Skyrocketed

    There are currently approximately 111,000 hunters in the province. Hunter numbers peaked in the 80s at 176,000. The current number of hunters is about what they were in the mid 90s.

    Is that really a meaningful metric though? If you have 200,000 hunters shooting 20,000 bucks is that better than 50,000 hunters shooting 10,000 does and 10,000 bucks? What matters to ungulates/wildlife is what is left standing after that season.


    2) Liberal Hunting Seasons

    You have implied that liberal hunting seasons are the problem so let's look at the species.

    Moose, which were generally general open season, with cow/calf seasons (both GOS and LEH), are now mostly on draw. Moose started to decline in the 80s, early 90s and have continued to slide through stochastic events or generally over time with the exception maybe of Region 8.

    Some of the harvest from areas with a lot of moose:

    Region 5 moose harvest went from 3000 in 1978 to about 600 in 2014.

    Region 6 has gone from about 2250 in 1979 to 1000 in 2014.

    Region 7a has gone from about 3500 in 1979 to around 1400 in 2014.

    Region 7b has gone from about 3500 in 1982 to 1100 in 2014.


    Mule deer used to be buck/doe GOS, then buck GOS doe LEH, now either 4 pts only or a combo of 4 pts and any buck. I looks like that started in the 90s. The interesting thing is the science in BC and across North America tells us buck seasons are not regulating populations - habitat, predation and doe harvest is. Most of the regions in BC haven't had a meaningful antlerless harvest since the 90s, some earlier.

    We don't have harvest numbers separated pre-1987 but here's a couple regions.

    Region 3 mule deer was at 5000 was 5500 in 2014. Region 3 has the most liberal mule deer seasons in the province.

    Region 4 mule deer harvest peaked at over 4500 in 1988 - it is now around 500. Deer haven't rebounded since 1997 and there hasn't been a doe draw in 20 years.

    Region 5 mule deer harvest 4600 in 1988 and is now around 3200.

    Region 8 went from about 5500 in 1992 to around 3100 in 2014.


    Caribou in central southern BC have gone from being GOS in the 90s to pretty much all closed. Caribou continue to decline.

    Elk seasons have gone from bull/cow GOS, to 3 pts bull and cow LEH, to 6 pts bull and now there is no LEH on migratory elk in southern BC. Elk in the East Kootenays have dissappeared in a few remote drainages, the non-migratory component has never been higher, hunter harvest and "opportunity" has never been lower but the population continues to decline.

    White-tailed deer have gone from buck gos and doe LEH to buck and doe gos.

    Black-tailed deer on Vancouver Island have gone from 2 does/1 buck gos to bucks on GOS and next to no doe harvest. The change happened in the 70s and it has not turned around. The deer harvest went from about 13,800 in the late 70s and is now around 4000.

    Several goat populations in Region 8 have been closed for decades and have either not recovered or have disappeared. The same applies to Region 3 and 5 where they've experienced some significant declines.

    Sheep populations in Region 3,4,5,8 are often also in decline despite limited hunter harvest - there hasn't been any kind of 'ewe' harvest across most of the populations for decades. Those that aren't in decline are often those where there have been fires.....


    BC's minimum sex ratios for deer and elk are 20 bulls:100 cows - that is higher than many other jurisdictions where they purposely manage for lower sex ratios than BC (idaho included).

    BC's minimum sex ratio for moose is 30 bulls:100 cows. We have studied that and reduced is to 20:100 in one area and it had no effect on pregnancy rate or timing.


    On the 'science side' the preponderance of evidence, the researchers, biologists, managers continue to tell us our hunting seasons are not holding these populations back or having a negative effect. They are telling us that we are not, and have not dealt with the issues around habitat and predation since the 70s/80s and that those will all have a positive effect on wildlife populations.

    We have forests that are supposed to burn every 10 years that haven't burned in 50. We have increased predator species/abundance on many landscapes. We have people building houses, highways and fences on winter range. We have invasive weeds moving across the landscape.



    To sum it up since the 1970s/80s:

    1) Hunting seasons are generally more restrictive
    2) There are fewer hunters
    3) Hunters are shooting far less game
    4) The preponderance of evidence indicates the current hunting seasons are not negatively affecting our ungulate populations
    5) We haven't done anything meaningful for wildlife for at least 30-40 years.

    We won't agree that the problems are from "skyrocketing hunter numbers" or "poor management in the last 10 years". From my perspective these problems started in the 70s/80s and that there has been little to no meaningful wildlife management since then.

    While hunters have changed the regulations wildlife populations have continued to decline yet hunters still want to talk about hunting seasons. I personally don't call changing hunting regulations wildlife management. Management implies an action that will result in change.

    While we will definitely agree that there is less game then there was we won't agree that the problem was started in the last 10 years due to "poor management" or that changing the hunting regulations will solve the problem.

    The decline is real - it has been happening for decades and it won't get turned around until hunters get focused on what will fix it.

    Wildlife needs money, science, and people who are willing to look at the big picture and advocate for it.
    Last edited by GoatGuy; 02-22-2017 at 09:42 PM.
    Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world.

    Mandela

  2. #412
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    8,515

    Re: southern interior mule deer strategy?

    This^^^
    Reading this, I started to think back what was so different from when I really started to hunt until now.
    And my father who hunted a good 20-25years before me.

    From his perspective,(thru my observations of him), is he is amazed at how many roads have been created, with so much
    new access, and logging, and the sizes o these cuts, really blow his mind compared to the "good ol' days", so many
    refer to.
    Even I am amazed in how tings have changed in my time period.
    Both of us can't believe all the areas that wolves now roam........hard to believe.
    And, lets not forget some of the other top Preds in that.
    Way, way more sightings, then anytime in the past.
    Also, the type of vehicles many hunt with now, are way more capable of hitting back country,
    and with supplies to stay up there for a week or more.
    And that is just from the perspective of 2 guys in the woods.
    Other factors which aren't easily seen also exist.

    Nothing new in this, but just wanted to show some of the younger guys what has changed.
    And that's just skimming the surface of the issues at hand.

    But a new "Model" is greatly evident now....agreed.

  3. #413
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    Oct 2012
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    region 9
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    11,528

    Re: southern interior mule deer strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    This^^^
    Reading this, I started to think back what was so different from when I really started to hunt until now.
    And my father who hunted a good 20-25years before me.

    From his perspective,(thru my observations of him), is he is amazed at how many roads have been created, with so much
    new access, and logging, and the sizes o these cuts, really blow his mind compared to the "good ol' days", so many
    refer to.
    Even I am amazed in how tings have changed in my time period.
    Both of us can't believe all the areas that wolves now roam........hard to believe.
    And, lets not forget some of the other top Preds in that.
    Way, way more sightings, then anytime in the past.
    Also, the type of vehicles many hunt with now, are way more capable of hitting back country,
    and with supplies to stay up there for a week or more.
    And that is just from the perspective of 2 guys in the woods.
    Other factors which aren't easily seen also exist.

    Nothing new in this, but just wanted to show some of the younger guys what has changed.
    And that's just skimming the surface of the issues at hand.

    But a new "Model" is greatly evident now....agreed.
    All very true, the landscape has definitely changed, and yes wolves and I'm sure other preds are using the FSR's to their advantage, but let's not forget, clear cuts are the second best thing for ungulates forage wise, with forest fires of course being first...so we could use them more for the benefit of ungulate populations if we advocated to have many of the spur FSR's deactivated properly...

  4. #414
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    428

    Re: southern interior mule deer strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoatGuy View Post
    Without a proper response from you on why you think the last 10 years are "poor management due to liberal hunting seasons with more pressure" I think we should just tackle the issues. I was hoping you would provide something to justify or rationalize your posts.


    1) Hunter Numbers Skyrocketed

    There are currently approximately 111,000 hunters in the province. Hunter numbers peaked in the 80s at 176,000. The current number of hunters is about what they were in the mid 90s.

    Is that really a meaningful metric though? If you have 200,000 hunters shooting 20,000 bucks is that better than 50,000 hunters shooting 10,000 does and 10,000 bucks? What matters to ungulates/wildlife is what is left standing after that season.


    2) Liberal Hunting Seasons

    You have implied that liberal hunting seasons are the problem so let's look at the species.

    Moose, which were generally general open season, with cow/calf seasons (both GOS and LEH), are now mostly on draw. Moose started to decline in the 80s, early 90s and have continued to slide through stochastic events or generally over time with the exception maybe of Region 8.

    Some of the harvest from areas with a lot of moose:

    Region 5 moose harvest went from 3000 in 1978 to about 600 in 2014.

    Region 6 has gone from about 2250 in 1979 to 1000 in 2014.

    Region 7a has gone from about 3500 in 1979 to around 1400 in 2014.

    Region 7b has gone from about 3500 in 1982 to 1100 in 2014.


    Mule deer used to be buck/doe GOS, then buck GOS doe LEH, now either 4 pts only or a combo of 4 pts and any buck. I looks like that started in the 90s. The interesting thing is the science in BC and across North America tells us buck seasons are not regulating populations - habitat, predation and doe harvest is. Most of the regions in BC haven't had a meaningful antlerless harvest since the 90s, some earlier.

    We don't have harvest numbers separated pre-1987 but here's a couple regions.

    Region 3 mule deer was at 5000 was 5500 in 2014. Region 3 has the most liberal mule deer seasons in the province.

    Region 4 mule deer harvest peaked at over 4500 in 1988 - it is now around 500. Deer haven't rebounded since 1997 and there hasn't been a doe draw in 20 years.

    Region 5 mule deer harvest 4600 in 1988 and is now around 3200.

    Region 8 went from about 5500 in 1992 to around 3100 in 2014.


    Caribou in central southern BC have gone from being GOS in the 90s to pretty much all closed. Caribou continue to decline.

    Elk seasons have gone from bull/cow GOS, to 3 pts bull and cow LEH, to 6 pts bull and now there is no LEH on migratory elk in southern BC. Elk in the East Kootenays have dissappeared in a few remote drainages, the non-migratory component has never been higher, hunter harvest and "opportunity" has never been lower but the population continues to decline.

    White-tailed deer have gone from buck gos and doe LEH to buck and doe gos.

    Black-tailed deer on Vancouver Island have gone from 2 does/1 buck gos to bucks on GOS and next to no doe harvest. The change happened in the 70s and it has not turned around. The deer harvest went from about 13,800 in the late 70s and is now around 4000.

    Several goat populations in Region 8 have been closed for decades and have either not recovered or have disappeared. The same applies to Region 3 and 5 where they've experienced some significant declines.

    Sheep populations in Region 3,4,5,8 are often also in decline despite limited hunter harvest - there hasn't been any kind of 'ewe' harvest across most of the populations for decades. Those that aren't in decline are often those where there have been fires.....


    BC's minimum sex ratios for deer and elk are 20 bulls:100 cows - that is higher than many other jurisdictions where they purposely manage for lower sex ratios than BC (idaho included).

    BC's minimum sex ratio for moose is 30 bulls:100 cows. We have studied that and reduced is to 20:100 in one area and it had no effect on pregnancy rate or timing.


    On the 'science side' the preponderance of evidence, the researchers, biologists, managers continue to tell us our hunting seasons are not holding these populations back or having a negative effect. They are telling us that we are not, and have not dealt with the issues around habitat and predation since the 70s/80s and that those will all have a positive effect on wildlife populations.

    We have forests that are supposed to burn every 10 years that haven't burned in 50. We have increased predator species/abundance on many landscapes. We have people building houses, highways and fences on winter range. We have invasive weeds moving across the landscape.



    To sum it up since the 1970s/80s:

    1) Hunting seasons are generally more restrictive
    2) There are fewer hunters
    3) Hunters are shooting far less game
    4) The preponderance of evidence indicates the current hunting seasons are not negatively affecting our ungulate populations
    5) We haven't done anything meaningful for wildlife for at least 30-40 years.

    We won't agree that the problems are from "skyrocketing hunter numbers" or "poor management in the last 10 years". From my perspective these problems started in the 70s/80s and that there has been little to no meaningful wildlife management since then.

    While hunters have changed the regulations wildlife populations have continued to decline yet hunters still want to talk about hunting seasons. I personally don't call changing hunting regulations wildlife management. Management implies an action that will result in change.

    While we will definitely agree that there is less game then there was we won't agree that the problem was started in the last 10 years due to "poor management" or that changing the hunting regulations will solve the problem.

    The decline is real - it has been happening for decades and it won't get turned around until hunters get focused on what will fix it.

    Wildlife needs money, science, and people who are willing to look at the big picture and advocate for it.

    Hey great data but much of it is like comparing apples and oranges, 30 year data needs to have many factors applied to keep it consistent with the times.
    In the past hunters did not have access to google earth, g.p.s, trail cameras, atv's, the internet, rec. road access, and many of todays resources that are readily available.
    Again great data, but apples and oranges.

    And once again as technology evolves, so must management's way of thinking.

  5. #415
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    Re: southern interior mule deer strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryToolips View Post
    All very true, the landscape has definitely changed, and yes wolves and I'm sure other preds are using the FSR's to their advantage, but let's not forget, clear cuts are the second best thing for ungulates forage wise, with forest fires of course being first...so we could use them more for the benefit of ungulate populations if we advocated to have many of the spur FSR's deactivated properly...
    Won't help a bit to improve holding capacity on summer grounds if the critters just starve out due to the lack of suitable wintering areas with a good forage supply. Winter habitat will always be the bottle neck.

    Road deactivation will only restrict hunters , much like the folly of reg changes
    Last edited by boxhitch; 02-22-2017 at 10:59 PM.
    Never say whoa in the middle of a mud hole

  6. #416
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    Re: southern interior mule deer strategy?

    And well said Goatguy....bownut, after my first few seasons of hunting, I thought game populations were in decline due to hunting regulations as well...but from several guys on this site, and through researching the science behind wildlife dynamics, I have learned the impact that hunting regs have on ungulate populations is far down the list...

  7. #417
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    Re: southern interior mule deer strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by boxhitch View Post
    Won't help a bit to improve holding capacity on summer grounds if the critters just starve out due to the lack of suitable wintering areas with a good forage supply. Winter habitat will always be the bottle neck.

    Road deactivation will only restrict hunters , much like the folly of reg changes
    Road deactivation will help to restrict wolves from what I have been told, and more importantly, restrict FN harvest, which includes females and young so it would definitely be beneficial....but I agree, winter range is the most crucial, but good summer forage helps them survive harsher winters....

  8. #418
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    Re: southern interior mule deer strategy?

    wolves, two and four legged, good points there H
    Never say whoa in the middle of a mud hole

  9. #419
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    Re: southern interior mule deer strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bownut View Post
    Hey great data but much of it is like comparing apples and oranges, 30 year data needs to have many factors applied to keep it consistent with the times.
    In the past hunters did not have access to google earth, g.p.s, trail cameras, atv's, the internet, rec. road access, and many of todays resources that are readily available.
    Again great data, but apples and oranges.

    And once again as technology evolves, so must management's way of thinking.

    Wildlife cares about what is shot - not if a hunter has a quad, gps, or a laptop and internet subscription.

    What is 'consistent' over time is how many moose were shot. That can often tell us the trajectory of wildlife populations particularly when we include it with wildlife inventory.

    Between Regions 5,6,7a, and 7b resident hunters used to shoot over 12,000 moose without all the technology you listed - now they shoot 4,000. Where there used to be cow/calf GOS and LEH, there is only bull harvest. Where there was GOS bulls there is mostly LEH.

    In around 30 years the harvest was reduced by 66%. Google earth, gps, trail cameras, internet, atv, road access do not matter to moose that are shot, bullets do.

    In Region 4 the mule deer season used to go to November 30th - ANY BUCK, they had a pile of doe harvest through LEH. Now they have a 2 month long 4 pt season that closes Nov 10. The harvest has gone from 4500 mule deer to 500 and people are still complaining about no mule deer. After 20 years of no antlerless harvest the population still hasn't bounced back. Mule deer should take 3-7 years for recovery; it's been 20 and people still want to have more restrictive seasons.


    That is not apples and oranges.



    What you have said is we have liberal seasons, skyrocketing hunter numbers and inferred we have massive over-harvest. What the data shows is we have more restrictive seasons, hunter numbers have increased in the last 10 years and harvest to mid 1990s levels, and the most important measure that doesn't change KILLS is in decline.

    Dead animals are apples and apples.

    The apple tree needs to be replaced.
    Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world.

    Mandela

  10. #420
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    Re: southern interior mule deer strategy?

    We have more bears than ever, more cats than one would ever imagine and wolves are in serious numbers now..thats the icing on the cake now that roads and tons of hunters are added
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