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Thread: Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

  1. #281
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    Re: Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricDyck View Post
    And answer how you think its been going so far...

    Ive been honest and forthright in my opinions and takes on things, it would be interesting to me and others to hear answers to these questions in a concise manor without speaking out of both sides of your mouth, no spin, just truth.

    People are looking for leadership to get behind. someone to donate to. As seen in the truckers protest there is no shortage of dollar bills when people are inspired.
    Speaking out of both sides of my mouth? No spin, just truth? Are you accusing me of lying? OK, if we're taking the gloves off, the actual problem is that you're stupid, can't read English and make stupid assumptions. Am I doing this right? To be fair, I already told you where to look for the strategy, and I recommend you do so. (and btw, Wildcatter, when's the last time a Radical Democrat recommended that someone read Andrew Breitbart? I'm still laughing about that one. Without Andrew Breitbart there would be no Trump).

    First, the one thing I've been saying is "Don't piss people off when you need their support to accomplish your goals". As far as I know there are two questions in relation to that issue that you haven't answered.

    1) Do you share the goal of restoring fish, wildlife and habitat and maintaining access to those three things for all BCers?
    2) If you do share that goal do you think it's a wise tactic to piss off people who's support is critical to accomplishing that goal?


    Strategy? Fairly simple. Change the conversation about fishing, hunting, conservation and access to the land base and the waters in BC so that government has to take those issues seriously and take the steps that people like me want to see (people like me because, again, as far as I can recall you haven't come out clearly for my clearly stated and broken record goal).

    That requires getting a lot more than just hunters and anglers supporting this. You've seen the math before - on one extreme is a minority that opposes hunting and firearms. On the other side of the spectrum are the people who hunt and fish and who like and need firearms. We'll keep this stage simple and say that those groups are 10% on each side. That means there's 80% who are predominantly undecided. We need to present a story, a narrative, if you will, that appeals to them and which they will support. I'm pretty sure you're the guy who says truth doesn't win the day anymore, right?. Her's the great thing: we can create a narrative that is not only convincing, but that is true, so we can have the best of both worlds.

    A large percentage of that great big middle support hunting for food, for example. Those numbers drop off substantially if you ask them if they support trophy hunting. (Don't anyone let that term trigger you. It's just data). As someone earlier in the thread pointed out, when you start pointing out the downstream effects of you and I hunting it's pretty easy to demonstrate to non-hunters and non-anglers that they all benefit in a ton of ways from hunters and anglers existing and doing what we do.

    Create a much larger and much more efficient hunter-conservationist NGO (essentially make BCWF bigger, with more members, and more effective). Generate more money and take things to court when we can. As the guys who founded RMEF once observed "That first million dollar donation was a game changer".

    Integrate western science and Indigenous knowledge and create as many healthy relationships with First Nations as possible. If your goal is restoring fish, wildlife and habitat and maintaining access to those three things for all BCers you'll understand why that's critical. We're outgunned and under-manned. We need to exploit every single possible source of power we can if we're going to accomplish the goal. If you prefer purity tests, say hello to losing.

    Get CORE back into the schools. Get young people exposed to hunting and angling.

    Become much more effective politically and make it clear to the three parties that dismissing our interests will hurt them at the polling both.

    Establish a fully funded chair in wildlife biology at one of the BC universities.

    Establish an independent fish, wildlife and habitat management agency with dedicated funding.

    I could expand further, but yogurt the drift and besides, what's the point? You don't think that we can pull it off, you haven't committed to the goal. Commit to the goal, send me an email asking how you can help, and I'll give you even more time. Meanwhile, if you like hunting and fishing, spread the message to others that they should stop chopping holes in our boat.


    I'm going bear hunting tomorrow morning. I'll get back to you when I return.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  2. #282
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    Re: Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

    Rob, our rights come from ourselves, and the strength of those rights is measured by the ease with which we maintain them.
    You’re doing good work, our disagreement over rights shouldn’t detract from that. Some might say it’s the best we can do within the system in place - i.e., playing the game.

    Pipe dream, I know, but I hope that the courts smack down the LSIB’s ‘right’ to block commercial activity on crown land as hard as they do our ‘rights’ to own guns.
    Last edited by Livewire322; 05-13-2022 at 07:05 AM.
    If it cant be done with one shot, it shouldn't be done.

    "grab large claw hammer - put against butt cheek , pry head out of ass with claws...then go back to school..."

  3. #283
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    Re: Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

    Rob, you talk strong on First Nations relationships and working together.
    How come with you being the First Nations liaison for the BCWF some of the First Nations at the forefront of wildlife issues don’t have a clue who or what you are, even though you’re pretty big on name dropping.
    I’m not going to get into a blogster argument on here with you….but as you say….bullshit doesn’t buy whiskey.

  4. #284
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    Re: Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

    Lots of talk of about who has who's ''Rights'' always throughout threads such as this. With a dictator like twodoe at the wheel rolling out the bull@hit by the wagon load, nobody can buy any whiskey. Rob is in there fighting the uphill battle and yes it is -40 below to!! It's bullshlacka to jump on the guy cuz what he doing don't fit your woke or whatever else might afflick yous. Jump in the boat an join the fight or tuck your tail. On yet the front lines of this takeover there are stacks of Canadians who just not gonna take it period and are getting full up to the gills with it all, with lots simply saying fu&k it!! And just going regardless of anything. Conflicts and confrontations are coming aplenty. Myself? I was born and raised here in Canada. This is My country,my homeland. With my forefathers having fought for our freedom and rights I'm a man of great respects and humbly so. I'm a peace lovin man. But the continued attacks on our great country and our freedoms and I to will fight. Lastly,as I am ranting a bit here, Surely there must be one man with a sighted in scope and a full set of balls and a crasy eyes that can rid us all of that dam doe! National hero for sure!!!lol. Let us all take moments to truly appreciate the Canada we have before any actions taken make it less. Just my two cents.
    RESIDENT HUNTER-"SUCK IT UP PRINCESS!"

  5. #285
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    Arrow Re: Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Chipman View Post
    I know very well that you understand that and empathize with the victims. Who wouldn't? The context I was referring to is that First Nations don't feel any better served by our government than many of the rest of us, and they have a lot of historic grievances that have been recognized but not substantially addressed.
    A great many of my friends are Indigenous - I use that descriptor due to the disgust the Inuit have for the term First Nations. And more than a few have tales of the resident schools. They are not however all doom and gloom as many would have you believe. Yes, there were confirmed cases of atrocious behavior. There are also confirmed cases of the polar opposite. So indeed, I have some empathy for those who endured the former, but I do not buy the line that every case was one of horror as they and the media would have you swallow.

    And yes, I can understand that they are as frustrated or more than I regarding the grossly inferior performance by government. Where we differ is that I do not believe that gives them an elevated position at the table, nor the right to demand the type of impositions that they are on the general populace as a consequence.

    But....are we seeing different movies here? I see a distinct shortage of people of good faith on each side. We have a putative leader who made a big deal of declaring a National Indigenous People's Day and then lied about working and spent the weekend running away from media like a little bitch. At the end of it he went to Kamloops and got dressed down in public. He is one example on the side of non-Indigenous people of a non-good faith actor, and a bloody embarrassing one at that. I know that you don't like him any more than I do, but in the movie I'm watching I see a lot of people who are not friends with each other fighting over the same pie.
    You are actually backing my thoughts here. It isn't simply the Feds, it is the government as a whole that is not acting in good faith. On the other side of the equation, I suggest there are a lot (the majority IMO) of those on the other side of the table doing exactly the same. Pointing fingers at either does not solve that major stumbling block. And that leaves us stuck right smack in the middle with little to no representation - good faith intentions or not. And I believe many on either side of the table are quite comfortable with that.

    We don't know how many graves there are. The graveyards clearly existed and they clearly fell into disrepair. We don't know who's in them, but they;'re not "so called" graveyards.
    The majority were cemeteries that fell into disrepair. How many contain children who died due to evil actions we will never know.

    Recognizing that very reasonable probability does not require excavation of graves. You yourself have gone so far as to say that, given that all the parties involved agree that ****ery there were likely kids buried in unmarked graves. You're only arguing about the number.
    You are overextending my words here. I have always been a proponent of the FN's original commitment - to disinter a sufficient number of these graves as to verify their claims. To some extent that means an idea of the numbers being verified. In others, it is a means to positively prove the point they are trying to make. I see their reluctance to follow up on their own expressed program in this regard as self serving & disingenuous.

    Wait. Are we, on the one hand, denying all kinds of actual evidence in regard to unmarked graves while on the other taking a position on speculation that the Lytton fire was started by First Nations as some sort of political act?
    I do not deny the existence of unmarked graves. I do question the narrative of how those came to be, and exactly who is in them. The preponderance of evidence I have seen strongly suggests the current narrative is being both inflated and sensationalized.

    In the case of Lytton, the jury is still out. But there are many (including several I know personally that lived there) that believe the fire was caused by a runaway from yet another church being torched. If that was the case, who knows whether or not FN's were directly involved or not. But if this does prove to be the case, the causal agent can obviously be linked to what spurred the many other related acts of arson and vandalism.

    That's a misunderstanding on your part.
    Given your repeated stance and acceptance of the narrative, if this is a misunderstanding from my end, you should be quite capable figuring out the why.

    Pissing First Nations off is bad for restoring fish, wildlife and habitat and maintaining access to it.
    I concur with that. They are however quite pissed off already. Enough so that the majority are wearing blinders to any way but the one they decree. I am not in favor of simply bowing to those demands, nor to kneel in order to placate their angst. If and or when they wish to get back to the table and negotiate in good faith, I would support them enthusiastically were they to do so. Their current confrontational approach is more than problematic to your stated goals.

    As for a plan, you don't need to have one, but if you don't, and you want to restore fish, wildlife and habitat and maintain access to it, why would you make achievement of that harder?
    I do not intend, nor do I act to make any of your efforts harder. One the other hand, I do not believe that simply catering to their demands in supplication is the way to move forward. Again, there has to be a sincere recognition and focus upon getting to where we want to be. Together. At this stage, I do not see that.

    I think you're seeing two sides but I'm not clear who those sides are. Horgan and Trudeau, for example, are not on my side. Neither is Raincoast. This isn't a racial divide as far as I'm concerned. The fact that Horgan and Trudeau are white doesn't get them my support or loyalty.
    There are far more than simply two sides. There always is. I concur that the fact the politicos are white does not get them my support either - far from it in fact. Conversely the fact that one of the sides happens to be red does not generate my automatic support either. Both sides are equally guilty of less than stellar tactics on occasion.

    The other side(s) in this equation are us, and the other user groups. In this mess we are generally cannon fodder. That cannot continue without the risk of losing the entire ball game.

    I think you're right. It's a very tough row to hoe. So far I think the only thing resident hunters and anglers offer First Nations is capacity and support in achieving some of their goals. Some First Nations may need or want that, but others do not. Some First Nations will cooperate with non-Indigenous people just because it's the right thing to do, but that's more hope than strategy.
    Some FN's. Some goals. I do not believe that to be the current end game of the majority.
    And while I do share your hope, I cannot help but wonder if it is one of futility.

    Look Rob, I do wish you well in your efforts. We want pretty much the same thing in the end. However having worked for years in a functional management regime, I can tell you it very much appears the cards are stacked in a way not to your (our) benefit. I cling to the hope that may turn around. And again I reiterate that I am more than willing to get involved when the parties around the table come to the mutual understanding that we are all in this together.

    Regards,
    Matt
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVNNhzkJ-UU&feature=related

    Egotistical, Self Centered, Son of a Bitch Killer that Doesn't Play Well With Others.

    Guess he got to Know me

  6. #286
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    Re: Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

    The attack on anything us "whiteys" enjoy continues. If you haven't seen the writing on the wall you are hopelessly blind. The European people of Canada are being attacked and we better stand up for ourselves because our cowardly government won't. Ask Jagmeet Singh!

  7. #287
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    Re: Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

    Quote Originally Posted by Livewire322 View Post
    Rob, our rights come from ourselves, and the strength of those rights is measured by the ease with which we maintain them.
    You’re doing good work, our disagreement over rights shouldn’t detract from that. Some might say it’s the best we can do within the system in place - i.e., playing the game.

    Pipe dream, I know, but I hope that the courts smack down the LSIB’s ‘right’ to block commercial activity on crown land as hard as they do our ‘rights’ to own guns.

    No problem! Our disagreement over rights is stuff to bullshit about around over the campfire once the shine goes down. No biggie.

    In terms of IPCAs (I think they'll be more of them) it's still up in the air what the Province will do. Fun times ahead.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  8. #288
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    Re: Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

    Quote Originally Posted by bearvalley View Post
    Rob, you talk strong on First Nations relationships and working together.
    How come with you being the First Nations liaison for the BCWF some of the First Nations at the forefront of wildlife issues don’t have a clue who or what you are, even though you’re pretty big on name dropping.
    I’m not going to get into a blogster argument on here with you….but as you say….bullshit doesn’t buy whiskey.

    Because when you describe me as a First Nations liaison that's a term you've brought to the table that doesn't actually describe what I do for BCWF and not a label I've ever used to describe myself? Does that explain it for you?
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  9. #289
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    Re: Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

    ROB how was the BEAR hunting ? Knock down a PUMPKIN head ? RJ
    Ignorance is not confined to uneducated people !

    Indigenious JIM - Born and Raised in BC !

  10. #290
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    Re: Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

    Quote Originally Posted by REMINGTON JIM View Post
    ROB how was the BEAR hunting ? Knock down a PUMPKIN head ? RJ

    Dis not. LML weekend hunt with my club, encouraging new guys to get out, restricted to around Pemberton.

    Each of the groups saw 4-5 bears, a few with cubs. No monster blacks, but some not bad ones. Saw a grizzly across the valley off the Hurley - you know how that goes - your eyes say "Wow - thats too big to be an actual bear but it's moving", then you put the knockers on him and you say "Oh yeah!"

    I'm going to try to hit the interior Thursday! Thanks for asking!
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

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