Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

[Rob Chipman]

According to what poll and why does it matter?
To you it may be a distorted idea, but to many of us it's reality.

Multiple polls, and the reason it matters is because if you think that the challenge we face is 3% of the population when in fact we face a much bigger challenge you're going to recommend and support solutions that don't work.

When more Canadians trust Indigenous leaders than federal or provincial leaders, who do you think the voting public will support and why? When JT went to Williams Lake recently, along with Marc Miller, did you notice that Global News didn't run any clips of Trudeau or Miller speaking? They ran Chief Sellars. Thats' a clue about how the world is moving. We all realize that on fish, wildlife, habitat and access to it the voting population is divided into 3 groups - us, a minority on one end, antis, a minority on the other end, and the great big middle of undecided voters who don't have our issues as one of their concerns. We need their support if we're going to throw any weight around. If you want to remain a puritan with minority beliefs and lose, fly at 'er. I'm interested in winning. Colour me selfish and competitive.



You don't need to like what I'm telling you, but if you want to dispute it do so on it's accuracy, not on the basis of whether you like the sound of it.

[Rob Chipman]

Maybe you voted for him, I never did and never will.
You don't make any sense in your reply.

Let me walk you through it.

If you don't like the fact that the Royal Proclamation of 1763 has been found by the courts to be valid in BC, meaning that most of BC is unceded land, and you don't want to reverse the decision through legal channels, you can ignore the law and just apply pressure (just like JT did in your example). That's how JT does things.

I think it's wrong, and I think he knows its wrong but that he can get away with it.

Are you suggesting he's got the right approach or (and this will make it very tough for you) do you agree with me that we should follow the law as interpreted by our court system and follow the honour of the Crown?

[Rob Chipman]

When Pierre T. brought the constitution back the RP should have stayed with the Crown, afterall it WAS their decision.
Now nearly 260 years later we should have nothing to do with it and ALL men should be equal on the land.

I don't disagree, as I've stated elsewhere, but the *facts* are that the RP does have force of law, that force of law arises with the Crown (we are a constitutional monarchy, remember? The Crown is the highest authority) , we have *plenty* do do with it (like it or not) and while all men *should* be equal, we've never run Canada on that principle and we aren't about to start.

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just giving you accurate data.

[Rob Chipman]

Rob
Thanks for such a great discussion on this topic and being patient with all of this. You have shed a lot of light on the challenges facing us as hunters and fishermen, and on the province. I have learned a lot from you over the course of the last few days. I would say that all of us should become much more informed about the realities of our history (like it or not) before being so short sighted. I know this is a bitter pill to swallow at some level, but i fully agree that the only way ahead is thru respect and concensus.

Thanks, but give yourself some credit as well.

I agree that we need to get better informed on this subject, and that probably starts with conversations between everyone on "our team" (not a great term, but you see where I'm going) before we can hope to make a deal with Indigenous peoples.

[VLD43]

Following Rob's comment above, if Government had done the right thing 100 years ago, this would not really be an issue.

But I admit I'm a bit confused by the position of resident hunters. 20 years ago, I'm sure I would have responded as many on here have. Times are very different now.

More recently, outdoors people, and hunters have become more critical of the BC Government's ability to effectively manage the land. We as hunters are constantly criticizing Government.

I understand when power shifts from BCGov to Indigenous groups we typically get concerned about a loss of access and even a loss of opportunity.

As Rob mentioned, in reality, this has been coming a long time.

Loss of opportunity is important, to me and to each of you. What if, we start from the informed position that perhaps, Indigenous groups - with a traditional vested interest in the land, would be more responsible as stewards of defined areas of land? Remembering we are constantly accusing the current BC Gov of a lack of responsible stewardship.

At which point - if we act responsibly and with respect - the discussion is less about "us vs them", and more about the quality of the land value and what activities can 'continue' to occur on the land? Which don't compromise the land value.

It is Crown land and the BC Gov should be having the discussion on the basis of stewardship rather than leaving us residents to be worried about alienation. Government should frame the discussion from a valued position to negotiate terms on behalf of residents.

To my point, if hunters carry themselves appropriately and show respect, it would be my assumption the land may benefit, and our outdoor activities might not be compromised. Our 'friend' will almost always trust us. Rather than separate from us, if we are rude, entitled and obnoxious.

The politics of the land has changed from 5 or 10 plus years ago. Establishing a "Demand seeking compliance" relationship, is simply not going to work. Being positional against other users of the land, simply is not going to work. The use of terms, "Protected" are not always accurately used. Protection vs Conservation.

Finding a new path, to carry on 'our' heritage is in my opinion, the best alternative.

J_T I was reading your post and highlighted to line in it. I am not trying to be disrespectful hear, but broaden the scope of your comments. First Nations love to tell you how respectful they are of the land and all living things. But then they turn around when empowered and contradict the very etho's they tell you they live by. Just think back over the years, the number of very questionable hunting practices and harvest violations commited by first nations. And their leadership seems to turn a blind eye. Look at the mess presently going on in Fairy Creek regarding old growth. The unfortunate part is that most First nations can't even agree among themselves. The LNG project would be another example. I want to be very clear that I recognize that not all first nations are this way.

First nations have also demonstrated by past actions that they will be the only ones hunting in certain areas they have claimed need to be managed by them. They then invite members from other areas outside the province to hunt on their land. They have this misguide idea that somehow they can subsist off the land like their ancestors did. They may achieve that goal in the short term, but it will be unsustainable in the long term. As their populations grow and more people live on this planet, along with the financial pressures, it will be all but impossible maintain. So you will excuse me if I don't buy into the rhetoric first nations sell, that they are the keepers of the land and know how to do it better than the colonizer. As I recall and correct me if I am wrong please, but hunting regulations were brought into force in the very early 20th century because of over harvest of wildlife.

[wildcatter]

Let me walk you through it.

If you don't like the fact that the Royal Proclamation of 1763 has been found by the courts to be valid in BC, meaning that most of BC is unceded land, and you don't want to reverse the decision through legal channels, you can ignore the law and just apply pressure (just like JT did in your example). That's how JT does things.

I think it's wrong, and I think he knows its wrong but that he can get away with it.

Are you suggesting he's got the right approach or (and this will make it very tough for you) do you agree with me that we should follow the law as interpreted by our court system and follow the honour of the Crown?

My comment was strictly to this one line you wrote:
"Pretty much. If you want to run things the way JT does then vote for him and his kind and support the BS that they do."

[VLD43]

When Pierre T. brought the constitution back the RP should have stayed with the Crown, afterall it WAS their decision.
Now nearly 260 years later we should have nothing to do with it and ALL men should be equal on the land.

And/or maybe back when Trudeau senior was repatriating the constitution he should have gotten rid of the Indian Act?

[Ron.C]

And/or maybe back when Trudeau senior was repatriating the constitution he should have gotten rid of the Indian Act?

he tried to do exactly that.

"White Paper" in 1969

[Greenthumbed]

So… here’s a couple of numbers to help calculate the percentages in BC.
350000 licensed anglers in BC
107000 licensed hunters in BC
5.24 million people in BC
This works out to be .087% of the population of BC.
I wouldn’t say we are in the majority. I would say it’s time to make some allies, powerful ones with common interests instead of making more enemies. It’s obvious to me the government cares little for fish, wildlife and habitat and less about hunters and anglers.

[VLD43]

he tried to do exactly that.

"White Paper" in 1969

Thanks Ron. I have heard it mentioned before as being a concern. To bad he ran into opposition.