Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

[Rob Chipman]

Not one excavation has been done, not. one.

This is a great example of the problem we face.

We all know that Indigenous people play a huge role in restoring fish, wildlife and habitat and maintaining access to all three of those things for everyone. We know that even if we create good relationships with Indigenous people we *may not* be able to continue the sustainable and healthy activities we've pursued in the past, but we also all understand that without a relationship with Indigenous people we *will not* continue doing what we do.

I wish it were choice between a gold star and a fail, or a choice between what we have always had or a complete fail, but that's not what we're faced with. We're faced with *not doing it at all before very long* or *doing something that we were able to maintain to a degree yet to be determined*.

If we do, indeed, get to a place where we can't do it at all in BC I'll be going elsewhere, and when that happens, guess what? I won't be doing what I have always done here and I will be doing something that other people and other governments let me do. It's not hard to see that we may be able to create that here.

If you don't have faith that we can do that, fine. Throw in the towel, tell people how accurately you can predict the future, and bitch from here to the old folks home. I'm not going to do that.

So that's challenge #1. Not all resident hunters and anglers actually want to preserve the activities we've all done all our lives. They demonstrate this by their words and actions.

Building on that understanding of the role Indigenous people play in the restoration of fish, wildlife and habitat and maintaining access to it for everyone I think we can all imagine that a guy like me spends a certain amount of time working with Indigenous people on things like fish habitat restoration, or harvesting methods, or ungulate range, or predator control. I meet these people face to face and speak with them. They are generally very experienced people who hold positions of influence in their nations, either as chiefs or councillors or elders. Their opinions matter if I'm going to contribute to actually restoring fish, wildlife and habitat and maintaining access to those three things.


As I've said many times, in a world full of problems, that problem is the one I'm committed to trying to solve. Other people may want to address other challenges, and more power to them, but I'm all about restoring fish, wildlife and habitat and maintaining access to those three things. Indigenous people are critical to any success.

Most of those Indigenous people, especially the ones my age or older, have experience with residential schools, the Indian Act, the results of contact and a healthy dollop of racism. I don't think any of us actually dispute that Indigenous people have had a rough go of things, and those who do dispute this do not have the facts on their side. Some of them have relatives in the graveyards. These are influential people who either attended or had parents and grandparents and other family members attend residential schools, who grew up hearing the stories, and who did not enjoy the experience. And then, of course, there's always the issue of land - they had it, we took it, and there are hard feelings.

There is, understandably, a great deal of mistrust and anger that we need to get past in order to make any relationship or deal.

So challenge #2 is to demonstrate that I, personally, am not a racist son of a bitch, and carrying on, that resident hunters and anglers are not racist sons of bitches. That challenge gets tougher when resident hunters don't want to subordinate their petty individual concerns to accomplishing the larger goal. How the hell do I explain a comment like "Not one excavation has been done, not. one." to someone who says "My aunt is in that graveyard. We've always known it. Why do I have to prove it to you? When your mum passes away I don't say "I don't believe you. Show me the body"; I say "I'm sorry to hear that. My condolences".

Again, if your concerns are that Justin Trudeau is a ****, or that you're afraid of people calling you a racist, or that you're concerned that communists are going to take over western civilization, great. Go address those challenges. More power to you.

But stop throwing rocks in my road.

What's challenge #3? In addition to demonstrating to Indigenous people that neither I nor the majority of resident hunters and anglers aren't racist sons of bitches I need to get resident hunters and anglers to to stop throwing rocks in my road. It's that simple.

A quick Google search will take you directly to United Church websites where the United Church agrees that it had Indigenous kids in residential schools, that some of those kids died, that they were often buried on school grounds, and that records were very shoddily kept and that the interments were not done properly. The United Church agrees that it's records were shitty, but they still share them with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and have helped make these records public.

That is, one of the "guilty" parties agree that they did what First Nations allege. First Nations and the United Church agree on the basic facts.

What about the Anglican Church? Same story. The First Nations, the Anglican Church and the United Church all agree on the basic facts. The Anglican Church has also shared their records. They were also incomplete.

Both churches apologized for this decades ago.

What about the government? Same story as far as agreeing on the basic facts, but the government has been a bit less forthcoming with the records.

Catholic Church? They've begun the apology process, but haven't shared the records.

What can you conclude? A lot of things, I guess, depending on your motivations.

But no reasonable person can dispute that all of the players in the event, the First Nations, the government, the United Church, the Anglican Church and, slowly but surely, the Catholic Church, all admit that kids were taken to the schools by force, that some of them died, that they were often buried on site, and that the records were not only poorly kept from the start, but also poorly preserved.

Everyone involved understands, agrees and admits that records of deaths and burials were made, but later lost. No reasonable person would conclude that the lost records would show that *fewer* kids died at the schools, and any reasonable person would in fact conclude that the number his probably higher.

These graves *were not discovered* as if nobody involved lied knew that they were there.

They were, at best, relocated. The government, the churches and the First Nations all knew that they were there. The government has documents indicating that they knew they had a problem on their hands as early as 1906. Documents exist that indicate that the government knew by the 60s the government knew that residential schools were a huge mistake that had to be stopped.

What's the difference between the government, the churches and the First Nations? Again, all parties involved acknowledge, admit and agree that the government and the churches don't have family members buried in unmarked graves with improper records.

So challenge #3 is convincing resident hunters and anglers that when the government, the churches and the First Nations all agree that something happened, and they back that up with decades of research and more than a century of documented evidence, maybe the reminder hunter or angler shouldn't say "Bullshit. Dig up you uncle's grave and prove it to me. An admission of guilt from the actual people who did the acts is not enough for me".

Sorry to be a bit harsh, and if what I've said about the First Nations, the churches and the government all agreeing that the event occurred pretty much as described (and they've all got a lot of the receipts and a lot of those receipts are online, free and public) is inaccurate, go to the archives and the reporting bodies and demonstrate to me that I'm mistaken.

But if your problem is that you can't accept that the government and churches would do bad and evil stuff? That's a petty personal issue that you need to work through. History shows, time and again, that while governments and churches do many things that are excellent and beneficial, they aslo have a long history of doing bad shit and denying it. If that is your problem, don't make it my problem by publicly identifying as a reminder hunter and angler and then publicly asking for even more proof of death. You're not helping any of us.

[goatdancer]

Thank you Rob for your explanations on this thorny subject.

[Ohwildwon]

Even if every licensed hunter purchased a fishing license, which I don’t accept as true, that still represents 6.7% of the population that is directly impacted. And as you point out, most of those hundreds of thousands of licensed anglers have satellite individuals that are impacted indirectly.

This, ^^^^^

well over a million voters is my guess, this can’t be stated enough

[Rob Chipman]

This, ^^^^^

well over a million voters is my guess, this can’t be stated enough

^^^^^^^

There is a lot of impact. You guys are basically making the same argument Shane Mahoney makes: that sustainable hunting and fishing impacts the public by orders of magnitude more than what many think. It's a good thing to consider when you start thinking "It's all over and can't be saved".

It's an extremely solid position.

https://thewildharvestinitiative.com/initiative/

[TheObserver]

Okay so, this is not a problem confined to Canada, or even the US. You can't outrun what we are facing it is a global ban on hunting and the ownership of weapons, for me getting ran out of my home province because apparently I wouldn't be aloud to enjoy my passions and hobbies is not an option I see, I would feel like a coward and an abandoner.

You, the government, bcwf, members here are not going to stop me from living my life and doing the things I love.

Who is this we you keep on speaking of? Is Huntingbc.ca? BCWF? Hunters and Anglers of BC? I'm not sure but I could guarantee a lot of people in those categories do not align with your beliefs and ideas therefore maybe think about using "I" statements.

You know little if anything at all about me and I have spoken nothing of "throwing in a towel" as far as I am concerned there will be an eventual all out ban on hunting and gun ownership whether they are successful or not is another matter.

I must say you sure have a lot of time to write on internet forums for someone that busy. For a lot of those indians in positions of power that are now making decisions, I wonder how they got there, and if they are honest.

Yes they have had a rough go, a lot of people have throughout real true HIStory. A lot of people and family members on the other side of the conflict have people put in graves by the hands of the natives, it was a war. It was never "their" land, they did not create it they could not hold it, other wars throughout history people have not been so fortunate.

Why are we even bringing up the topic of racism and "racists son of a bitch", don't we hear enough of that daily already? It is stuffed down our throats. I never recalled either you or me being particularly racist. My comment saying not one excavation has been made is not racist it is factual truth, I am talking about the child mass graves apparently discovered last summer, not one an aunt or grandmother could be in, it is now known that one excavation has not been made and probably will not because what we have been told is just not true. I don't doubt the government, the churches had native children die at their hands and they were buried, but this massive huge tragedy we are being forecfed is so distant far from the truth it's scary. Ironic isn't it the government/United Nations names one of it's agendas "truth and reconciliation" truth, yeah, right okay there. But the media ran with it, and now it is like the jews with zionism the average citizen won't speak out about undrip or what is being handed to the natives, who knows nevermind hunting and access, could be your house next. All to push the agendas further unhindered. Professors from BC schools are even calling it falsehoods and even the national post which is mainstream(someones going to lose there job for that I bet). Someones Mom passing away is a ridiculous comparision these native/undrip agendas have MASSIVE implications for every person in this country, there is a lot at stake to be lost that's how you answer that question think critically and do not believe everything they see on TV is what these people need.

Justin Trudeau is a mere puppet of the controllers, that is my thoughts on him. Hahaha afraid of people calling me a racist, go ahead. The native/undrip agendas are one small facet of a global conspiracy that will unfold and unravel whether you me jim or bob like it or not, what is happening in the world right now is much much larger than communism or the west or a possible "takeover".

Why should anyone have to prove that they are not racist(can barely even handle this word anymore), or have you prove they aren't, we are all adults in this conflict of interest. Some are some aren't, such is life.

Nobody needs to do nothing for you man sorry to say, that includes "throwing rocks" people are going to do what they are going to do, you have no control over them.

Of course the churches and governments readily admit to their guilt and it is way way over exaggerated. Again this all furthers the agendas. They are using the natives as pawns to achieve an end, just like "climate change" "covid" and all these other false created "crises". It all gives the system and government the illusion of legitimacey as they go forward with undrip until it gets so bad you cant do or say or own anything on "native land".

By the way those 3 churchers are horribly infiltrated and taken over I am a Christian and don't even go to official churches because almost all are 501c3 compromised.

No actually people who are reasonable would say show us facts, why is it that your a bad man and you can't ask questions about what we are being told about the official narrative, kind of reminds me of 9/11.

Again lets get an excavation going so we can see with our own eyes it is true, and even better yet give them a proper burial, those who would disagree to that disgust me personally.

I don't believe possibly falsified documents, the government, possible natives that have been put in positions to speak like controlled puppets, definitely not the churches.

I know, not think, that the government and controlled churches like rome do much more horrid things than that discussed here. I am not a naive child.

I'm not trying to help anyone, truth wins in the end and gets exposed. It always does. No matter how long it takes.

If you and your views expressed here represent the BCWF fully and with authority then that would lead me to believe that they would be controlled opposition if we can not even question the official narratives about the issues that are threatening and pressing us. I'm sure I will receive quite some hate for even speaking a possibility of that.

P.s I have no time for back and forths of this magnitude on the internet or any screen for that matter so I will not be replying to you. Have a great life.

[TheObserver]

^that message was to Robchipmans reply to mine, I could not fit it with the quote

[ElectricDyck]

Hey Rob, I don't think it's the fact that not one excavation has been done that is the problem. The problem is the lack of leadership in the FN community and our elected leadership, they said nothing and watched as a reaction to a inconclusive ground survey led to churches being fire bombed as if indians are the only people who have survived hardship in the last 100 years...for something that you say they all acknowledge and agree on...

Has there been a determined cause to the fire that destroyed Lytton?

Don't forget when those children were taken it was a different time..lots died of disease..my moms eldest brother died at a young age...some parents volunteered their children for the schools as they saw the times were changing so fast and they wanted their kids to be successful. The indians went from having slaves and boiling water in a cedar pot with hot rocks to having pots, pans, guns, medicine, metal traps etc..technology overload..This is not the popular narrative of the day but there are Indians with good experiences from the schools...not reported or taught to my kids in school now... I read in his science book that first nations are often first responders to ecological disasters lol ...If you believe this you also believe all the church people running the schools were horrible abusers...

I believe the only reason indigenous people play a role in hunting and fishing is because of our tax dollars and UN directives and now you are forced to deal with them to get the scraps of whats left of hunting...so far the history is not showing we have a chance..klappin rail grade moose closures, atlin moose closures, now 7b closures...

What would you have us do? Write letters? Donate? Align ourselves with powerful conservation organizations? If so who? If "a bunch of white guys protest and wave flags" and go hunt ashnola this fall, are we "throwing rocks in your road"? Are we acting like racists for asking questions?

[wildcatter]

Okay so, this is not a problem confined to Canada, or even the US. You can't outrun what we are facing it is a global ban on hunting and the ownership of weapons, for me getting ran out of my home province because apparently I wouldn't be aloud to enjoy my passions and hobbies is not an option I see, I would feel like a coward and an abandoner.

You, the government, bcwf, members here are not going to stop me from living my life and doing the things I love.

Who is this we you keep on speaking of? Is Huntingbc.ca? BCWF? Hunters and Anglers of BC? I'm not sure but I could guarantee a lot of people in those categories do not align with your beliefs and ideas therefore maybe think about using "I" statements.

You know little if anything at all about me and I have spoken nothing of "throwing in a towel" as far as I am concerned there will be an eventual all out ban on hunting and gun ownership whether they are successful or not is another matter.

I must say you sure have a lot of time to write on internet forums for someone that busy. For a lot of those indians in positions of power that are now making decisions, I wonder how they got there, and if they are honest.

Yes they have had a rough go, a lot of people have throughout real true HIStory. A lot of people and family members on the other side of the conflict have people put in graves by the hands of the natives, it was a war. It was never "their" land, the did not create it they could not hold it, other wars throughout history people have not been so fortunate.

Why are we even bringing up the topic of racism and "racists son of a bitch", don't we hear enough of that daily already? It is stuffed down our throats. I never recalled either you or me being particularly racist. My comment saying not one excavation has been made is not racist it is factual truth, I am talking about the child mass graves apparently discovered last summer, not one an aunt could be in, it is now known that one excavation has not been made and probably will not because what we have been told is just not true. But the media ran with it, and now it is like the jews with the zionism the average citizen won't speak out about undrip or what is being handed to the natives, who knows nevermind hunting and access, could be your house next. All to push the agendas further unhindered. Professors from BC schools are even calling it falsehoods and even the national post which is mainstream(someones going to lose there job for that I bet). Someones Mom passing away is a ridiculous comparision these native/undrip agendas have MASSIVE implications for ever person in this country, there is a lot at stake to be lost that's how you answer that question think critically and do not believe everything they see on TV is what these people need.

Justin Trudeau is a mere puppet of the controllers, that is my thoughts on him. Hahaha afraid of people calling me a racist, go ahead. The native/undrip agendas are one small facet of a global conspiracy that will unfold and unravel whether you me jim or bob like it or not, what is happening in the world right now is much much larger than communism or the west or a possible "takeover".

Why should anyone have to prove that they are not racist(can barely even handle this word anymore), or have you prove they aren't, we are all adults in this conflict of interest. Some are some aren't, such is life.

Nobody needs to do nothing for you man sorry to say, that includes "throwing rocks" people are going to do what they are going to do, you have no control over them.

Of course the churches and governments readily admit to their guilt and it is way way over exaggerated. Again this all furthers the agendas. They are using the natives as pawns to achieve and end, just like "climate change" "covid" and all these other false created "crises". It all gives the system and government the illusion of legitimacey as they go forward with undrip until it gets to bad you cant do or say or own anything on native land.

By the way those 3 churchers are horribly infiltrated and taken over I am a Christian and don't even go to official churches because almost all are 501c3 compromised.

No actually people who are reasonable would say show us facts, why is it that your a bad man and you can't ask questions about what we are being told about the official narrative, kind of reminds me of 9/11.

Again lets get an excavation going so we can see with our own eyes it is true, and even better yet give them a proper burial, those would disagree to that disgust me personally.

I don't believe possibly falsified documents, the government, possible natives that have been put in positions to speak like controlled puppets, definitely not the churches.

I know not think, that the government and controlled churches like rome do much more horrid things than that discussed. I am not a naive child.

I'm not trying to help anyone, truth wins in the end and gets exposed. It always does. No matter how long it takes.

If you and your views expressed here represent the BCWF fully and with authority then that would lead me to believe that they would be controlled opposition if we can not even question the official narratives about the issues that are threatening and pressing us. I'm sure I will receive quite some hate for even speaking a possibility of that.

P.s I have no time for back and forths of this magnitude on the internet or any screen for that matter so I will not be replying to you. Have a great life.

The UN, Horgan the gofer keep fanning the flames and FN now riding high, they know
they can do anything they want and it will get support, approval, or at least no opposition.
Anybody who has a different opinion is racist, this got to end!

[TheObserver]

The UN, Horgan the gofer keep fanning the flames and FN now riding high, they know
they can do anything they want and it will get support, approval, or at least no opposition.
Anybody who has a different opinion is racist, this got to end!

I know how it won't end!!

People are waking up to this garbage, because they went to hard and fast with muh cOvAiDs, that a lot of commoners/autobelievers pre "covid" now question everything they are told(which is one of the best things that could happen to the general populace). As before they never questioned the gov or system that made them so comfortable and decadent

[ElectricDyck]

By the way, my family hiked in 4 hours off the ashnola fsr before season a few years back. We saw nothing in the evening, woke up, made coffee, and decided to go on a stroll and look across and down into the fingering meadows. That transition zone where it goes from rocks to lush green meadows fueled by run off to forest. I saw first the tallest velvet 2 point Id ever seen, then a 3 point, then a 4point, then a 4th deer, a 4 point that made me shake. It was preseason and I had no gun but that was the biggest deep forked tallest 4 point Id ever seen.... we made plans to come back 2 weeks later than the whole place was on fire...we made plans to go back again and covid hit...we had plans to go back this year now this..