Indian band declares Ashnola valley protected

[Rob Chipman]

Rob, you and I concur on a great many things.
Other's not so much.

This is one of the latter.
The Media turned this quagmire into a sensationalist circus $hitshow, to which the FN's collectively fanned the flames as hard as they could. The numbers of identified "ground disturbances" were trotted out and held as hard, fast, horrific numbers of "graves".
Many FN's then noted they would begin and conduct investigations, including interments, to determine actual numbers and identities.
They then turned around and blocked investigations by the RCMP, Coroners and more. The narrative was to "rich" to take the chance that reality might cause it's desmise it would seem.

Many of these so-called unmarked cemeteries were just that - cemeteries which served a wide range of folks, including FN's but most certainly including a great many locals who were not.

What's the point? If you are going to cry Wolf, be well prepared to back that up.

As for you being an apologist for these actions, I am somewhat taken aback. Doing so appears to be coming across as a politico rather than a proponent of what you claim IMO.

I agree with the focus on restoring and maintaining wild lands and wild resources. It is a worthwhile pursuit if we (and our children) are to try to preserve something of our way of life. I do at the same time see this as an uphill struggle when those you suggest we should consider "partners" ain't so much interested in working with us, preferring to dictate instead.

Cheers,
Matt

The media did what the media does. The media was aware of the apology by Harper, by the apologies from the United Church and the Anglican Church, that the records were shared, what the records said, how they contributed to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and yet they didn't report on it.

Why? You and I both know why. A plane that lands safely isn't news. Explaining context to a complex issue (Ukraine anyone) doesn't sell newspapers. Truth? Way harder to monetize than outrage.

Place the blame for that where it really belongs: the media. These are the same guys who present a nice lady with some goats and crystals in Golden as an expert on the province's wolf cull program but who somehow lose the phone numbers of guys like Rob Serrouya or Clayton Lamb.

You can absolutely make the argument that First Nations then fanned the flames. I think that's fair comment. How about some context? The report from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission came out with 94 calls to action....2015. Most people haven't even read the calls to action. #71-76 explicitly deal with dead children at residential schools. 6 years before Kamloops hit the news, little action on those calls to action. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission began hearing testimony and examining documents in 2008 - 13 years before Kamloops hit the news. The Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement, which was one o f the things fuelling the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, was agreed upon in 2006, 15 years before Kamloops hit the news. The Royal Commission on Aboriginal People was started in '91 and delivered its recommendations in '96.

You see where I'm going. If I were an Indigenous person I'd be getting a bit impatient with all the talk and if I got a chance to fan the flames I would. None of us can pretend we didn't see this coming. It's been in the windshield all of our lives and it pre-dates all of us on this forum. One of the 94 Calls to Action deals explicitly with who leads the investigations of the graveyards. Point being? They weren't "discovered", despite what the media says, and we knew (if we cared to look) that as early as 2015 there wasn't going to be Indigenous buy in for an RCMP or government led investigation. There is, as we all know, but some still don't want to appreciate, a great deal of distrust between First Nations and the state apparatus of Canada. (You want accurate Indigenous harvest numbers? You better build up some trust).

You can make the argument that these many of these so-called unmarked cemeteries were just that - cemeteries which served a wide range of folks, including FN's but most certainly including a great many locals who were not, and you'd be correct. You'd also be missing the point and and you'd be misleading people a bit.

They're not "so called" cemeteries. They're cemeteries that everyone involved knew about and agreed existed. They had marked graves, and in some cases they had marked graves of non-Indigenous people. In some cases they fell into disrepair and morphed into unmarked graves for completely innocent reasons (lack of funding, lack of personnel, the ravages of time in general) but, as the records show and as all parties involved agree, there were kids buried without names, without dates, without identifying details and without causes of deaths. I'm no lawyer but I think you and I can both agree that those sorts of practices are all sorts of wrong, and good quite likely amount to the level of crime.

If your little brother disappeared at a boarding school that he was sent to without your parents' consent, and he died, and he was buried there, and the only record said "Child died and was buried", I think you'd be pissed. I sure would be. If you received no satisfaction from the governing authority you'd probably lose some trust in that governing authority (hell, we've got guys on this thread arguing that they don't trust the government for much, much less, right?).

And any reasonable and experienced person would speculate "If they were planting kids without always keeping proper records, and if some of these graveyards have fallen into disrepair, and if its been proven in courts of law (complete with guilty pleas) that there was abuse happening, shouldn't we all be curious about the possibility of there being kids getting buried with absolutely no written record ever being made?"

Again, we've read guys on this thread who agree that churches and governments will do some very evil stuff from time to time, so why would we *not* speculate that a little ground penetrating radar is in order? I'll tell you this: if I was acting as an agent for someone selling a piece of land that once held a residential school or one adjacent to a residential school and there was any chance that it might contain "ground disturbances" that could be linked to the residential school I'd advise making sure there were none. We do that all the time for oil tanks on pain of being found grossly negligent and subject to substantial monetary penalties and civil and professional liability. I can only imagine how much shit a RE agent would get into for letting someone buy land to build a Wal-Mart that had unmarked graves from a residential school on it. A lot of money would change hands between the errors and omissions insurance company and Wal-Mart, I'll tell you that.

So they're not "so called" graveyards. They're graveyards that may very well hold more people than they are supposed to, with little record or explanation of how they got there, and that's a problem in most people's books. Recognizing that does not make me an apologist.

Sidebar. A buddy of mine went into a music teacher's home. Theres a pic on the wall of a young Canadian soldier. Buddy asks "What's the story?" Turns out the music teacher is the little sister of a soldier who was MIA in Northern Europe '44-'45. In the 50s they got an anonymous letter from a German vet who advised that he'd been there when her brother was killed, that they'd buried him in a shallow grave, not reported it, but that the writer had taken the dead Canadian soldier's ID.

Now, I grew up in an army family surrounded by guys who fought that war. What those Germans did was very offside, which is why the letter came anonymously, years after the war.

Fast forward to the 2000s. The sister is a little old lady who says that her brother was killed by Germans and is buried in an unmarked grave. Everyone involved agrees on the basic facts. Germans killed Canadians in the war; this particular German was there when this particular Canadian soldier was killed and buried in an unmarked grave; he has incomplete records about the grave; there is no direct proof.


What do you do? Do you doubt the woman? Do you say "If you're going to cry wolf you better be prepared to back it up?" Do you start defending the German, saying "It was a war. Shit happens. It was so long ago who cares anymore? Lots of other people suffered as well"? Or do you say "I believe you, that's terrible, and I'm sorry for your loss"? I know you well enough from this forum to know you'd say "I'm sorry for your loss".

My buddy, all credit to him, with the sister's consent, went to Europe, disinterred the kid and brought him home to his family 50 years later.

As for me being an apologist, what exactly do you think I'm apologizing for?

The media's behaviour? I'm not the media. I'm not responsible for what they do.

The behaviour of First Nations? Jesus Christ - If my brother or uncle was in the graveyard and nobody was doing much about it for *decades* I'd be pissed too (and I suspect you would be also, as would many others on this forum who are pissed about all sorts of things of much less import).

The behaviour of churches and governments who ran residential schools? I'm not apologizing for them.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Who do you think I'm being an apologist for and why?

It is an uphill struggle. I'm suggesting, since we're out gunned and under manned and have to conduct, for lack of a better term asymmetrical warfare, that we avoid pissing off people who are critical to our success, especially when some nations do work with us on some things that we value in common.

What's your plan? I'm all ears.

[ElectricDyck]

Why waffle and argue over the graves outside of residential schools? Whether it's 10 or 10,000, or even if there are a few Vikings in there? I honestly can't recall of any other schools in Canada [other than residential] that had their own graveyards and buried 'students' in them. I can't even think of a penitentiary that buried their 'students' in the yard?

How about the Gulags? Not in Canada but same time frame..Although sometimes they ate the dead to keep from starving..

[ElectricDyck]

So Rob did the truckers protest accomplish nothing in your mind? Do you think it was a coincidence that mandates were dropped soon after? If someone calls something racist does it matter if its true or not? Or is spin the only thing that matters now?

Seems like the goal is to not offend the new hunting boss as its our only option. Accept hunting and fishing as we know it is done and work towards something new that hopefully resembles what we had.

Maybe its the only option as I do believe hunting and fishing is done as we know it.

[HappyJack]

How about the Gulags? Not in Canada but same time frame..Although sometimes they ate the dead to keep from starving..

I've heard of the Gulags, although I was thinking more of Canadian history.

[high horse Hal]

Why waffle and argue over the graves outside of residential schools? Whether it's 10 or 10,000, or even if there are a few Vikings in there? I honestly can't recall of any other schools in Canada [other than residential] that had their own graveyards and buried 'students' in them. I can't even think of a penitentiary that buried their 'students' in the yard?

and its no mystery, someone knew exactly what happened at the time, likley lots of families were in contact
the care and concern? maybe a fall-down there

[Rob Chipman]

So Rob did the truckers protest accomplish nothing in your mind? Do you think it was a coincidence that mandates were dropped soon after? If someone calls something racist does it matter if its true or not? Or is spin the only thing that matters now?

Seems like the goal is to not offend the new hunting boss as its our only option. Accept hunting and fishing as we know it is done and work towards something new that hopefully resembles what we had.

Maybe its the only option as I do believe hunting and fishing is done as we know it.

Lot of things going on is this thread. A lot of them have nothing to do with restoring fish, wildlife and habitat or maintaining access to them.

Did the truckers protest accomplish nothing? No. Of course not. It accomplished a few things, but it also caused some problems. That's a topic for another day, but I think you know I'm not a fan of lockdowns, mandates or safety guidance from our dear leaders.

Here's a question for you: do you think you could get a convoy of that size, or even a 1/10 of that size, to mobilize to force, a la the truckers' convoy and Covid mandates, but this time to restore resident hunting and angling to the stage it was at some earlier time? If you can you should start doing it.


I give zero ****s if someone calls something racist, whether it is racist or not. Who cares? There are people in the States that will call roads racist. So what?

Answer me this: if you want, say predator management, or ungulate science or predator science, or prescribed burns to restore sheep and deer habitat, on the one hand, or you want to argue with First Nations about the ins and outs of racism, which would you choose? Its a free country, so you can choose either and I wish you success either way, but without First Nations consent and cooperation you're not going to get the wolf culls or SIMDeer, or the Southern Interior Cougar project. You sure as hell are not going to get pinniped management nor an accurate count of First Nations harvest. And you're not getting a grizzly hunt back either. So pick your poison. You can't have both.

Nobody is taking away your right to offend people. The question is: why do you want to do it? Have you thought it through?

Hunting and fishing is done as we knew it. Government has mismanaged it and industry and commerce has nuked it. Why wouldn't you accept that? It's a plain as the nose on your face. Is it even possible to reject that conclusion? I think you'd be delusional to try.

I think I've been pretty clear that we do, indeed, have to work toward a new model, because a new model is coming whether we like it or not. The only question is: are we going to have any say in how it looks.

[ElectricDyck]

I've heard of the Gulags, although I was thinking more of Canadian history.

My point was it was different times..reading history through todays lens is problematic...

[ElectricDyck]

I brought up the truckers convoy again because it sounded like you thought it had no effect and will be remebered for being racist..

I think the way things are going you might just be able to raise a convoy of hunters and donations. When buddy moved the klappin rail grade blockade people donated, myself included...but people need to take risks..hard to give donations to politicians...

I dont seek to offend people, most don't, but to have an honest conversation you risk offending people.

[ElectricDyck]

Hunting and fishing is done as we knew it. Government has mismanaged it and industry and commerce has nuked it. Why wouldn't you accept that? It's a plain as the nose on your face. Is it even possible to reject that conclusion? I think you'd be delusional to try.

From what I understand moose populations in 7b and 6 are stable, grizzly populations are stable..

When they closed the open moose season on the klappin, rut closures all through 6 there was no conservation concerns...just pressure from FNs..

[J_T]

Lot of things going on is this thread. A lot of them have nothing to do with restoring fish, wildlife and habitat or maintaining access to them.

No doubt there are a lot of threads/topics within this thread. Connecting the restoration of fish, wildlife and their necessary habitat to the Indigenous Truth and Reconciliation..... if we aren't working to establish better wildlife management practices, we will be entering into a "Wildlife" truth and reconciliation phase in the near future as we will have let wildlife down. What actions might turn this around?

Almost every where I go for a walk/hike, I find remnants of winter kill. Last night I found a bull elk, killed after his antlers dropped, which was not that long ago. Last week, I found (in different places) 4 dead whitetail. Without hunters on the consumptive end, wildlife numbers fall. Predation, habitat. Question is, what can we do on the other side of the harvest to ensure populations are on the rise? I doubt the truckers convoy had any impact on wildlife (wasn't intended to). But truckers do take a lot of wildlife on our highways. What action might reduce that? Predation, habitat, highways and railways.

We discuss citizen science as a factor in understanding and estimating wildlife and their numbers. Government are cautious about citizen science. I think it's an area we should develop more. Government provided harvest data from 1976 to 2016, is almost completely irrelevant to what is trending now. We can find additional ways to estimate the status of wildlife and the actions needed to support them. Citizens, are those who live on the land and spend time out on the land. Who know what is going on out there. Community, Citizen, does not matter what your ancestral origin is, what matters is that we work together and find solutions.