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Thread: BCWF Webinar "When does selective hunting lead to evolutionary change and what (if a"

  1. #31
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    Re: BCWF Webinar "When does selective hunting lead to evolutionary change and what (i

    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Buffalo View Post
    Who's idea was it to give Biachet a platform and megaphone at the BCWF?

    That shouldn’t be a hard question for Rob to answer ….if he’s granted permission to speak.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Buffalo View Post
    What could make sense?

    Don't be naïve.
    I mean this with sincerity, as most do not see the big picture here.
    Bianchet is looking for B.C to be the control group.
    His desire is for Compassionate Conservation to be applied globally.


    I have spent thousands of hours in this battle.
    I have shown many people the proof that allowed them to understand the truth, if they were willing to invest a little themselves.
    This is much too large and important to be dealt with on a forum or in a short video chat question period.
    It is very easy to contact me.

    This can is full, and they are not worms inside.
    Be very careful when opening.
    Maybe others that we do not suspect follow along with the Compassionate Conservation train of thought.
    Rub shoulders long enough and some will rub off.

  2. #32
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    Re: BCWF Webinar "When does selective hunting lead to evolutionary change and what (i

    Quote Originally Posted by bearvalley View Post
    That shouldn’t be a hard question for Rob to answer ….if he’s granted permission to speak.




    Maybe others that we do not suspect follow along with the Compassionate Conservation train of thought.
    Rub shoulders long enough and some will rub off.

    See! I know your style.

    Are you assuming someone in BCWF controls who's allowed to say what? ****, don't give that guy my number. It might not end well for him.

    And who is it who isn't being given permission to say anything? Are you referring to me? There's no way you mean me. I mean, I think anyone who's spent any time on this forum knows that if you take the cork outta my pie hole I'll generally be the last one left talking.

    Expand on who you think is following along with the compassionate conservation train of thought. Show your math. If your answer is correct then we can solve that problem. If all you're going to do is suggest that there might be monsters under the bed? Wow.

    If true, could be big.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  3. #33
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    Re: BCWF Webinar "When does selective hunting lead to evolutionary change and what (i

    Rob, study up on genetics.
    The ewe is a factor as well and in “viable, thriving” populations and she will be part of the genetic makeup of the next generation.

  4. #34
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    Re: BCWF Webinar "When does selective hunting lead to evolutionary change and what (i

    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Buffalo View Post
    Thanks for that link. Reading it now. There's some good math based info there (one big ram sired 1/3 of lambs one year, and another sired 1/4 of all lambs over 6 years) but a notable absence of math based info right after "Some rams get big by 4 and if they get taken out of the population..." which begs the question: in a long term study of a population did you record which rams got big young and how many got killed young?

    Maybe that's in the paper later, but (especially in this day and age) what *isn't* reported is often a very important data point.

    I say that to show you that I'm looking into this, but I think it would be cool if others who don't like Festa-Bianchet's science prepared some good questions for him. Tough questions can be very enlightening, especially if asked the right way.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  5. #35
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    Re: BCWF Webinar "When does selective hunting lead to evolutionary change and what (i

    Quote Originally Posted by bearvalley View Post
    Rob, study up on genetics.
    The ewe is a factor as well and in “viable, thriving” populations and she will be part of the genetic makeup of the next generation.
    Good pivot.

    Anyway, getting back to the subject you raised.... is there actually someone at BCWF who controls what someone else says? Who's someone #1, and who's someone #2? Have you studied up on that?
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  6. #36
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    Re: BCWF Webinar "When does selective hunting lead to evolutionary change and what (i

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Chipman View Post
    Good pivot.

    Anyway, getting back to the subject you raised.... is there actually someone at BCWF who controls what someone else says? Who's someone #1, and who's someone #2? Have you studied up on that?
    Lol….no Rob, it seems you’re just the self elected spokesman for the Fed….the TCG and Chad Day as well as PHAAT …and any other topic that your blog savvy skills want to run away with.
    Give my regards to the rest of the muppets!

  7. #37
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    Re: BCWF Webinar "When does selective hunting lead to evolutionary change and what (i

    See...caught you red-handed stirring the pot!

    Anyway, register for the webinar and ask the guy some tough questions. Nobody will get hurt.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  8. #38
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    Re: BCWF Webinar "When does selective hunting lead to evolutionary change and what (i

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Chipman View Post
    I probably expressed it poorly. It's not an endorsement of anything (aside from the most basic premise) that Dr. Festa-Bianchet is saying. It's a comment on my current state of understanding this argument.

    For example, if someone says "If you only shoot 4 pt mule deer you'll end up with a bunch of 3 pt mule deer because points are genetic and if you remove 4 pt genes you won't get 4 pts" I say "Hmm. That *could* make sense. What's the argument?"

    Same thing is someone says "Rams that get big early, before they spread their genes, don't get to spread their genes, and that means smaller rams" I say "Hmm. That *could* make sense. What's the argument?"

    I haven't looked at the argument deeply enough yet, so the failing is mine. But, as in all things, until I look at the information I am, by definition, uninformed. That applies to everyone.

    The fact that you say you've spent a lot of time looking at the argument and find a lot of flaws? That's one of the first steps for me to get a better understanding of the argument. And let's face an obvious fact: if I didn't post this webinar, and you didn't respond, and I didn't bring up control group, I would never have heard you say "BC is his control group", so this is absolutely worthwhile.

    I don't know where you stand on the free speech issue (and it's very complex and a rabbit hole) but I'm a believer that letting a wide audience hear something results in a small part of that audience potentially being very critical of critical of the something that is heard (and in a positive, informed way). Yes, a 1 1/2 hour presentation with 30 minutes for questions will not put the issue to bed, but the benefits of it are, without question, worth it.

    In this short thread, before the webinar has even started, we've raised at least three very important issues.

    That's why the "Don't let Joe Rogan spread misinformation about vaccines" argument is doomed to fail.

    We're both easy to contact and we should both share information....widely. You and me knowing conclusively what's wrong with the world doesn't fix the world. We need a bunch of people to fix even the smallest problem. Neither of us have the bandwidth to do it without everyone else.
    There is something to be said about free speech no doubt. Also something to be said about giving someone a platform. Generally a conservation group who gives a platform to someone to present a topic has at least a general acceptance or belief in that person and the validity of what they are saying through the organizations platform. Quite simply, a platform isn't given by an organization who opposes that person's views (nor would anyone expect it)

    Obviously some members who organized the presentation see value in what Marco is pushing. No judgment in that one bit as that's bound to be the case with a bunch of viewpoints), but the platform is not given to those at will just in the name of free speech. It's obviously acknowledged that some support his message and want it shared.

  9. #39
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    Re: BCWF Webinar "When does selective hunting lead to evolutionary change and what (i

    Quote Originally Posted by Rackmastr View Post
    There is something to be said about free speech no doubt. Also something to be said about giving someone a platform. Generally a conservation group who gives a platform to someone to present a topic has at least a general acceptance or belief in that person and the validity of what they are saying through the organizations platform. Quite simply, a platform isn't given by an organization who opposes that person's views (nor would anyone expect it)

    Obviously some members who organized the presentation see value in what Marco is pushing. No judgment in that one bit as that's bound to be the case with a bunch of viewpoints), but the platform is not given to those at will just in the name of free speech. It's obviously acknowledged that some support his message and want it shared.
    Few points.

    The Wild Sheep Foundation hosted the 7th World Mountain Ungulate Conference in Bozeman in 2019. Some of the speakers? Shane Mahoney, Val Geist....Marco Festa-Bianchet. Now I'm pretty sure that both Shane Mahoney and Val Geist (may he rest in peace) were not compassionate conservationists. If Festa-Bianchet *is* a compassionate conservationists, which viewpoint was WSF accepting or believing?

    These webinars are organized by a group of people, the majority of them paid staff, and they're all tasked with getting interesting people who are willing to speak on conservation issues and draw an audience. They've got a bunch of people to commit to doing presentations, which is a very good accomplishment. Actually providing long term, recurring and topical content is a tough challenge. We've done them on wildfires, salmon, pinnipeds, cougars, CWD, road density, carnivore management, moose, forest practices, steelhead, etc. I am in a position at BCWF where I could object to this guest, as could other directors, but there is clearly value in having him speak, and the value does not reside in the message that he's pushing.

    Nobody has said that Festa-Bianchet is getting a platform because BCWF is fighting for free speech. I see value in a controversial person being allowed to speak because I believe in free speech, not because I think the particular person's message has value and I want to support it. I trust the audience to make up it's own mind because I respect them and I believe that the et result will always be positive. I don't know who supports Marco Festa-Bianchet's message but I know a lot of people would want it shared simply because the believe more information is always good.

    I raised the free speech aspect not because BCWF is a newly minted free speech crusader who's next webinar guest will be Dr. Jordan Peterson; I raised it to point out that the alternative is to deny the audience the ability to hear a guy like Festa-Bianchet because some people don't like what he says. That's a bad alternative for conservation because conservation is a field strewn with disagreement over the science and a lot of provocative subjects.

    Here's some examples the value in what Festa-Bianchet is going to say (and I haven't even heard the presentation yet):

    1) Is he actually a compassionate conservationist? Some say he is. It would be good to confirm that.
    2) Is he attempting to change BC regs so that he gets a control group for a pet project of his, or is he asking a valid question that conservationists would like to see asked and answered?
    3) Is he an anti-hunter?
    4) If the answer to 1,2 & 3 are yes, who else agrees with him and how much influence do they have?

    You see the point. That list could go on an on. Just ask Bill Burr about reasons and how many there are (if you haven't seen it, treat yourself. Don't tell anyone I laughed at it. They'll think I support wife beating! It's hilarious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rksKvZoUCPQ)
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  10. #40
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    Re: BCWF Webinar "When does selective hunting lead to evolutionary change and what (i

    Fair points Rob. I guess I was likely in your spot years ago when I hadn't heard his comments as well as counter arguments and seen everything I've needed to see to come to my conclusions. I understand that's a different spot than many in BC so I don't see the value (because I've gone down the road already). Will be intetesting to see where our residents land after hearing the message and counter arguments.

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