What if we consider ungulates co evolving with humans?

[wideopenthrottle]

generally it is accepted that lynx populations follow hare populations so not exactly in balance...
this from the googs:
The lynx population decline follows the snowshoe hare population crash after a lag of one to two years. As hare numbers start to decline, lynx continue to eat well because they can easily catch the starving hares. When hares become scarce, lynx numbers also decline.

well yes, but you have define what balance is to make the claim that nature is not in balance. like i defined what balance is as it relates to the rabbit and the lynx.

[IronNoggin]

In a literal sense, You are making up new definitions in an attempt to validate your reasoning.

Nature is Never in balance. Never has been, never will be.

It is not supposed to be, Nature is designed for Imbalance.

You are attempting to employ logic on one that cannot understand it.

Nature has never "been in balance". Rather it is a constantly shifting swing from one extreme to another.
Always has been.
Always will - except for our interference to make "balance" occur for our own preferred species.

Nog

[Bugle M In]

In a literal sense, You are making up new definitions in an attempt to validate your reasoning.

Nature is Never in balance. Never has been, never will be.

It is not supposed to be, Nature is designed for Imbalance.

I guess the real question (as I agree with your statement) is, when do humans reach that "imbalance".
Sure, plagues and wars have had their effects.
But, we never seem to reach "maximum capacity".
And we see those effects daily now.

So, what's the end game for us?
Little drops here and there isn't going to be enough, considering we are still creating other species to go extinct.
Even if they don't go extinct, their numbers will never reach what they once were.
Boffola, salmon, are just some examples.
Sure, some species don't have much affect on us.
But others certainly will.

[adriaticum]

generally it is accepted that lynx populations follow hare populations
As hare numbers start to decline, lynx continue to eat well because they can easily catch the starving hares.
When hares become scarce, lynx numbers also decline.

That, exactly is balance. If there is such a thing.
Natural balance is a balance of predator and pray.
Animal and it's food.
As long as they are both there, it's balanced.
When one goes extinct, the balance is lost and it will destroy both species.

[horshur]

That, exactly is balance. If there is such a thing.
Natural balance is a balance of predator and pray.
Animal and it's food.
As long as they are both there, it's balanced.
When one goes extinct, the balance is lost and it will destroy both species.

Not a good example, hare populations are not balanced by lynx..they (hare) will go on regardless on the same cycle. Lynx may be dependent on hare but not vice versa.

[adriaticum]

Not a good example, hare populations are not balanced by lynx..they (hare) will go on regardless on the same cycle. Lynx may be dependent on hare but not vice versa.

Have you ever had rabbits in a confined space?
They eat themselves out of existence.
If there were no lynx, rabbits would multiply fast and destroy their environment pretty quickly which would lead to a die off.
In fact lynx create the rabbit cycles.

I think you have just given the anti hunters their strongest argument.

[horshur]

Wonder how hare in UK keep going on? Look up sun spots and hare on google.

[Rob Chipman]

Balance is a funny concept. What timeline are we talking about, for example? What time *period*? Now, or 200, 500, 1,000, 1,000,000 years ago? What kind of disruption in the ecosystem?

Is a predator pit a balance or a system on it's way to a balance (ie, wildlife desert?).

It's a useful concept only when we agree on what we mean and then move on. Arguing about what it is? Kinda pointless.

[bearvalley]

Balance doesn’t occur on its own with wildlife other than in the eyes of the fang & claw protectors.
Landscape management is the key term …where, what & how many.

[adriaticum]

Balance is a funny concept. What timeline are we talking about, for example? What time *period*? Now, or 200, 500, 1,000, 1,000,000 years ago? What kind of disruption in the ecosystem?

Is a predator pit a balance or a system on it's way to a balance (ie, wildlife desert?).

It's a useful concept only when we agree on what we mean and then move on. Arguing about what it is? Kinda pointless.

its a human concept, its what we agree on really