Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 43

Thread: What if we consider ungulates co evolving with humans?

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    3,423

    Re: What if we consider ungulates co evolving with humans?

    Adriaticum, your sorta agreeing in a way with my initial point, I probably should have noticed earlier. If wildlife co evolved with humans..maybe they cannot exist without us either?
    The premise of many is that the world would be a whole lot better off without us..but maybe not? Us trying to remove ourselves from the responsibility may be a even bigger error? It is so insistent. The world used to be a paradise..people came along..ate some fruit and became conscious of self. And it has all been downhill since.
    It is well to try and journey ones road and to fight with the air.Man must die! At worst he can die a little sooner." (H Ryder Haggard)

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Duncan
    Posts
    2,983

    Re: What if we consider ungulates co evolving with humans?

    If wildlife co evolved with humans..maybe they cannot exist without us either?
    look into the wildlife resurgence after Chernobyl. It’s very clear, wildlife generally thrives without us. For the most part humanity puts tremendous evolutionary pressure on wildlife, usually in the form of habitat loss. However some species coexist and thrive in the presence of humanity. Nature is not in a state of balance… that implies it can be toppled if brought out of balance. Nature will naturally seek equilibrium. If nature were perfectly balanced, then evolution would cease. But there is always pressure being exerted on the equilibrium that allows for the condition of evolution.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Surrey, BC
    Posts
    13,183

    Re: What if we consider ungulates co evolving with humans?

    Quote Originally Posted by horshur View Post
    Adriaticum, your sorta agreeing in a way with my initial point, I probably should have noticed earlier. If wildlife co evolved with humans..maybe they cannot exist without us either?
    The premise of many is that the world would be a whole lot better off without us..but maybe not? Us trying to remove ourselves from the responsibility may be a even bigger error? It is so insistent. The world used to be a paradise..people came along..ate some fruit and became conscious of self. And it has all been downhill since.
    yes more or less.
    They can exist without us, as long as there are other predators who take care of them.
    There must be a balance between food and what eats it.
    Predators and prey.
    Nature's design is to have grass, grass eaters and meat eaters.
    This is balance. IMO. Too many of any of those and the whole planet suffers.
    Too few of any of those and the result is the same.
    We are not the only predators on the planet. Yet. But it's going that way.
    Earth existed millions of years before we became what we are today.

    We could exist on earth in much smaller numbers without negatively affecting the planet's ecosystems.
    IMO, Earth doesn't care if we exist or not, as long as we exist in numbers that are small enough and sustainable and don't cause catastrophic ecological events.

    But like any problem animals, we have become a burden.

    Animal biologists often try to calculate carrying capacity of the land for their specific species and ecosystems.
    But nobody seems to have a number for carrying capacity of humans.

    From the history I know, deforestation of Europe was a major event that triggered mass migrations, lack of resources and triggered migrations and discoveries (North America)
    There we several other things.
    Anasazi in the Chaco canyon cut down the last tree and were forced to move from the land they lived for a long time.
    Buffalo destruction in the prairies.
    India has lived in squalor since the time of Buddha.
    Those are ecosystem destroying events caused by humans by over using a resource.

    If I had to put my number on it, I'd say that the planet could sustain anywhere between 500M and 1B people without major impact.
    And we could live like we live today in North America. Basically comfortably.
    But during my lifetime human population doubled.
    If we don't figure out how to control our growth, nature will.
    The only thing we can do for the planet, that is beneficial, is reduce our numbers to pre 1800.
    Otherwise, the more we grow, the less freedom we will have. The need to control our behaviour will be greater.
    Governments will have to come up with scams to keeps us under control.
    We will be like those dogs in cages before they go to Chinese and Korean kitchens.
    1. Human over population
    2. Government burden and overreach

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    8,515

    Re: What if we consider ungulates co evolving with humans?

    If we are talking Co -"Evolved", then I dont know if that is a great description.
    When evolution is talked about, It is spoken in terms of thousands, if not millions of years.
    Evolution of say Homo sapiens taking over Neanderthal or say millions of years in regards to Dinosaur evolution.
    But, really we have only been here a short time (homosapiens) and yet have we have upended everything in a very short time.
    Our populations are huge, we inhabit every continent, we take over the most prime areas in the habitat.
    I just dont see how the creatures have co-evolved with us in it.
    Unless you talk about that MD buck in your backyard eating your tomato plants that it only realized in a generation or 2 that
    they can eat them.

    Any evolution of ungulates sure has not presented itself in such a way that i think we can measure at this point, if at all.
    Any evolution for them might be dependent on changes in temps etc.
    Example, polar bear and grizzlies now beginning to intersect in territory, thus a new evolution in the bear species.
    I jut don't see how humans cause them to evolve, other than altering their environment, ie: global warming.
    In that case, I can see a co-evolution occurring.
    But, probably not for the best.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Surrey, BC
    Posts
    13,183

    Re: What if we consider ungulates co evolving with humans?

    Bugle, one example of co-evolution of deer, elk, bison with humans would be any and all adaptations they made as a result of humans modifying their habitat by logging, resource extraction and development.

    We build fences around highways dividing ecosystems permanently.
    surely animals have had to adapt.
    1. Human over population
    2. Government burden and overreach

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,478

    Re: What if we consider ungulates co evolving with humans?

    ^^^^^^my opinion, I would consider what your saying as adaptation not evolving.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Surrey, BC
    Posts
    13,183

    Re: What if we consider ungulates co evolving with humans?

    Quote Originally Posted by j270wsm View Post
    ^^^^^^my opinion, I would consider what your saying as adaptation not evolving.
    Adaptation is evolution.
    Just add time.
    1. Human over population
    2. Government burden and overreach

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    8,515

    Re: What if we consider ungulates co evolving with humans?

    Adaption or Evolution, I am pretty sure it isn't the way Darwin analyzed how we all got here.
    Even the elk have evolved, as we used to have an elk that was huge (forget the name), or elephants where some were mammoths
    etc.
    Maybe the grizzlies now mating with polar bears might bring back the great cave bears??
    IF the ungulates want to really co-evolve with humans, they better start to grow fingers with opposing thumbs if they want
    to keep up

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Port Alberni
    Posts
    14,203

    Arrow Re: What if we consider ungulates co evolving with humans?

    Hunting and evolution: theory, evidence, and unknowns

    Marco Festa-Bianchet, Atle Mysterud

    Abstract

    Intense selective harvest of large mammals who carry the largest weapons may lead to an evolutionary shrinkage of those weapons. Currently, evidence suggesting evolutionary effects of harvest is limited to a few species of Bovidae and only 1 study has obtained data indicating a genetic effect.

    To have an evolutionary impact, harvest must be intense, persistent over time, similar over a large area without an effective source of unselected immigrants, and remove large individuals before they have a chance to breed. Many current harvest schemes do not fulfill all of these requirements, and they are unlikely to cause evolution.

    Before changes in weapon size over time are attributed to evolution, potential environmental sources of change, mainly density and climate, must be considered. We suggest that the role of weapon size in determining reproductive success, especially in interaction with male age, will determine whether or not intensive selective harvests may have evolutionary consequences.

    Age at harvest is a very important variable to consider. Changes in age structure over time may reveal underlying changes in harvest pressure or selectivity. A lack of data hampers our ability to assess the potential evolutionary effects of selective hunting. We provide a list of research hypotheses required to advance our ability to assess the evolutionary sustainability of current management practices."


    https://academic.oup.com/jmammal/art...3X1_8T39wTBRAk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVNNhzkJ-UU&feature=related

    Egotistical, Self Centered, Son of a Bitch Killer that Doesn't Play Well With Others.

    Guess he got to Know me

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    8,515

    Re: What if we consider ungulates co evolving with humans?

    ^^^^okay, I just finished shoveling a Strata Complex.
    Need a shower and a scotch (maybe a few) before I consider reading and contemplating that

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •