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Thread: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

  1. #11
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    iirc the changes in Reg 5 md were to address hunters concerns raised in the large, round table consultations and hunter satisfaction surveys back a few years ago
    Just shows to go ya not all will ever be pleased
    Never say whoa in the middle of a mud hole

  2. #12
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by blacklab View Post
    I thought we were told that when we reduced white tail numbers, mule deer populations would bounce back.
    It is happening same as in okanogan. LOL
    It is well to try and journey ones road and to fight with the air.Man must die! At worst he can die a little sooner." (H Ryder Haggard)

  3. #13
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    I am not asking this out of Curiosity, but in fact out of Concern.
    The Concern is because of some of the Rumblings I am hearing thru discussions with others about some
    Areas in R3 bordering R5 and the impacts R3 is starting to see and show signs of.

    Firstly, I like to say I was worried when I heard that R5 would close for 10 Days from the onset.
    And many that I speak to, both long time hunters and FN and Ranchers are seeing the same issues.
    The first issue is the increase in Hunters in some of the MU's, which i would say have seen a 300 to 400%
    increase (just an observation, not stat).
    Right from the get go, there was an increase, and over time, word of mouth and I guess hunters inviting
    other friends has helped create further increase in Hunter #'s.

    Now, talking to a few other long time Hunters (40 years + and hunt theses MU's often in the season), there
    certainly seems to be grounds for concern.
    MD Doe #'s seem to be decreasing, but what is really noticeable is the "Lack of Mature MD Bucks" in these
    MU's.
    The Local Ranchers in the Area also saying the same thing.
    One that I talked to said that they have a filed with hay bails, and cameras, and for years would see upwards of 50 MD at night, mostly Doe, but with Bucks.
    Now, they are barely seeing 20, and only 1 reasonable mature MD Buck (which was poached on their
    property, by whom, who knows, maybe hunters, maybe FN?).
    Talking to a couple of FN from the nearby Bands, I am hearing the exact same thing from them.
    So much so, that there are "whispers" of what they want to see happen.

    The FN Bands are talking about "Full on Closures, or possibly Rotating Full on Closures, alternating each
    year".
    These areas would be that where we have seen Fires this season as well as some from a few years ago.
    (And I am not joking here folks!).

    Ranchers are posting up Signs, due to all the hunting traffic and concerns for safety and livestock etc.
    (Sounds like The Cattleman's Ranch Association is stepping in to help these smaller Ranches and you
    will probably see some new signage for next year! but some just went up now from what I am told).

    As for some of the long time Frequent Hunters of MD, there is now the thought that the "Any Buck Season"
    should be removed from R3, or at least certain MU's, due to the lack of mature MD buck sightings.
    (if those rumblings take off in certain R&G clubs, who knows how far up that travels then??)
    The other rationale being to get rid of some of the heavy traffic of hunters these same MU's are seeing.

    I know some of these areas well.
    I have to be honest and there is certainly grounds for concern.
    Its hard to spot a mature MD buck
    And, if one does get taken by Hunters, they are pretty damn small now (no more than 3.5 years of age imo)
    And I am now seeing MD Doe #'s going down (and I was always in the past saying #'s were stable but
    could never figure out why #'s weren't increasing as many of the Mature Doe had 1, if not 2 yearlings)

    We also had some large Fires, and I don't think anyone, from any of the Groups I mentioned above can
    really say if possibly the lack of MD or dwindling #'s is due to these big fires (it could be).
    That is yet to be seen, as it will take a few years to get back on track, but don't think you will see deer
    using all of the same terrain as much as they did pre-fire.

    But, 2 elements are true, imo.
    Hunter Traffic has gone way way up.
    Mature Buck # have gone way down.
    (there were quite a few small bucks taken this year in the any buck season from reports in October).

    The reason I ask about R5 closure, is the fact that it is causing some real issues now.
    If it doesn't get re-opened, and help take away some the hunting pressure in those R3 M's, we might be
    facing further restrictions or potentially closures in R3.

    When you start having experienced long time hunters, Ranchers and the FN all saying the same thing,
    then there certainly will be talks going on shortly I fear.

    For my part, when having these one to one discussions, I ask everyone to be patient and see what comes
    from the Southern MD Study.
    We are seeing that Cougar are doing their part for sure.
    And we need to know all the factors before we start saying, restrict this or close that!
    Its great that this study is collaring Doe and yearlings, as I would like to understand why we aren't really
    seeing an increase in MD# over time.
    Only lacking point I see is that there aren't any mature MD being collared, as to see what is their fate.
    Yes, Doe are still getting pregnant at a high rate, but by who and what age????
    So, it still wont have all the answers.
    And whether something comes from it, who knows, I ain't holding my breath.

    Certainly there is some poaching element going on.
    I have seen small bucks lying dead with only their antlers cut off.
    Doe left to rot (and they weren't lost)
    Some other incidents as well, so it is happening.
    And no one really knows where the FN #'s fall into it all.
    I have had conversations with some band members, and some say they have taken 1 or 2, while others
    report they have taken 4 in a season and one individual proudly stating he took 20 in one season.
    What to think, who to believe?.

    So, I ask, what is going on with R5 and may we see it reopened at some point?
    It could take the ever increasing pressure off of some of the R3 MU's, imo.
    I am trying to not hit the Panic Button here.
    But I am conveyancing that there is a lot of talk starting to develop, and solutions differ depending on which
    group you are talking to, but all of them are saying something needs to change ASAP.

    I am saying something is going to change soon, because too many are starting to talk.
    The talk always include restriction or closure.
    That's concerning, so, that is my heads up to all.

    YOU ALWAYS COMPLAIN ALWAYS...Was good hunting this year..your mileage maybe not so much ever....
    It is well to try and journey ones road and to fight with the air.Man must die! At worst he can die a little sooner." (H Ryder Haggard)

  4. #14
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    I know of guys who are concerned enough about muleys that they've stopped hunting them, and I can certainly agree that there are areas that dependably held deer that currently seem completely or substantially deer-free.

    There are lots of possible causes.

    - lots of logging, meaning lots more roads and lots more open areas where deer can be seen;
    -lots of logging meaning substantial habitat alteration;
    - more hunters;
    - longer range equipment so people can shoot longer over more open clear cuts and kill more deer;
    - more predators the take advantage of more open areas and roads;
    - unlicensed hunters that, in prior years, had to get licenses or get nailed as poachers, but who can now hunt legally without a license (and all I'm saying is that hunter numbers aren't accurately counted);


    We can add more *possible* explanations/questions to that list. The real question is: what's the answer and what's the solution?

    The answer is more funding and more science. Without that we won't know, pure and simple.

    SIMDeer did collar fawns but I haven't seen the survival rates yet. That's important because (iirc) we had high pregnancy rates and high doe survival. That *should* mean more deer unless the fawns don't make it to breeding doe age *or* unless predators (including 2 legged ones) are killing too many.

    My understanding is that regs are changed at a regional level, and the changes are not necessarily in harmony with regional and provincial goals. That probably needs to change as well.

    Bottom line: we have a lot of species in trouble and, based on the action we take, collectively as a province, we're totally fine with them going the way of the dodo. That needs to change.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  5. #15
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by horshur View Post
    YOU ALWAYS COMPLAIN ALWAYS...Was good hunting this year..your mileage maybe not so much ever....
    Firstly, i have no idea where you are coming from.
    The mileage thing, even more confusing (you haven't had a stroke lately have you??)

    Is it a complaint.....I don't know maybe.
    My concern is that there are now several groups, FN, Cattle guys, and resident hunters complaining.
    The FN are talkin full out closures on rotation amongst themselves right now that they most certainly will take to the Ministry.
    Sure, they want closures, after all, it does not apply to them.
    If it did, they would drop it hat and ask for for further restrictions, again, because it wouldn't apply to them.
    And if it did, well, they will just do what they want anyways without fear of prosecution.
    The Cattleman (which i guess might be you???) are involved because there certainly has been issues with hunters on
    grazing land and destroying it in the past with quads and atv and the local dirt bike clubs.
    So, in that regard, i know why they are now involved now.
    And the problem behind it is, all the extra hunters that have now hit the area.
    Years ago, hunters showed up less in #'s and they didn't use quads, so the nearby ranches tolerated it quite well, and all
    got along.
    But, its the whole bunch of new hunters hitting the area that is causing the issues and concerns.
    I wasn't complaining, only stating what is occurring right now and how different the changes are.

    And as for the Long time hunters of the area, they are concerned about the lack of mature bucks, the amount of traffic that
    has showed up, and they are talking about Restrictions to rectify it.
    And as i said, it sounds like these folk want to see the "any buck" season removed.

    What concerns me more, is that the Ministry goes to the "close it for 10 days also" scenario.
    I could care less about the any buck, but i am not against it either.

    In which case, it means more area closed during that time frame.
    That means hunters being pushed elsewhere again, so on and so forth.

    I am only communicating to folks that care on HBC as to what is going on in a few of the MU's and what might be coming.
    Not sure what the complaints are in that.
    But carry on, you points definitely contribute to making things better for RH in BC.

  6. #16
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Points that have come up in discussions-

    - In the big picture, the hunters foot print is pretty small, there will always be escapement. Small areas get most of the pressure but in reality most of the ground goes untouched

    -wildlife cannot be stock-piled. Holding capacity is what it is. Increase numbers may only lead to increase winter kill......may. Quality of habitat is just as important as quantity

    -Antler restrictions are the safety valve, licensed hunters never kill all the breeding stock

    - regulating for quality instead of opportunity will only discourage hunters, without hunters there is no value to wildlife, with out value there is no interest in management
    Never say whoa in the middle of a mud hole

  7. #17
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    "The FN are talkin full out closures on rotation amongst themselves right now that they most certainly will take to the Ministry.
    Sure, they want closures, after all, it does not apply to them.
    If it did, they would drop it hat and ask for for further restrictions, again, because it wouldn't apply to them.
    And if it did, well, they will just do what they want anyways without fear of prosecution."

    circulus in probando
    Never say whoa in the middle of a mud hole

  8. #18
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    Feb 2009
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Chipman View Post
    I know of guys who are concerned enough about muleys that they've stopped hunting them, and I can certainly agree that there are areas that dependably held deer that currently seem completely or substantially deer-free.

    There are lots of possible causes.

    - lots of logging, meaning lots more roads and lots more open areas where deer can be seen;
    -lots of logging meaning substantial habitat alteration;
    - more hunters;
    - longer range equipment so people can shoot longer over more open clear cuts and kill more deer;
    - more predators the take advantage of more open areas and roads;
    - unlicensed hunters that, in prior years, had to get licenses or get nailed as poachers, but who can now hunt legally without a license (and all I'm saying is that hunter numbers aren't accurately counted);


    We can add more *possible* explanations/questions to that list. The real question is: what's the answer and what's the solution?

    The answer is more funding and more science. Without that we won't know, pure and simple.

    SIMDeer did collar fawns but I haven't seen the survival rates yet. That's important because (iirc) we had high pregnancy rates and high doe survival. That *should* mean more deer unless the fawns don't make it to breeding doe age *or* unless predators (including 2 legged ones) are killing too many.

    My understanding is that regs are changed at a regional level, and the changes are not necessarily in harmony with regional and provincial goals. That probably needs to change as well.

    Bottom line: we have a lot of species in trouble and, based on the action we take, collectively as a province, we're totally fine with them going the way of the dodo. That needs to change.
    Yes.
    Part of the reason for the long OP was to try to inform that there are many of reasons to the issues we are seeing.
    We would need a short novel to go threw that.
    I tried to convey to the FN individual i was talking to exactly that, that there are possibly many reasons for the lack of deer.
    Like I said, the two issues I do agree with the other groups is that there certainly are too many hunters in the area.
    And that there certainly is a lack of mature bucks.

    Some of the other peoples thoughts were that FB/IG has contributed to the big influx of hunters over the past 10 years or so.
    I am sure there is truth to that, but also saw it noticeably right after R5 closed.
    And, when i see new groups of hunters i never recognized before, i would most often stop and chat.
    And every time, especially early on after R5 closed, they all stated that they would normally be in R5.
    And that some were starting their hunts with the first few days in R3 until R5 opened again.
    OR, that some where finishing their hunts in R3 because R5 closed.
    Everyone has to remember, that the Remembrance Day week is big on the list for many to take time off.
    And it generally means MD hunting.
    And if you are from the LM, and you book a week off, it is the one time where you go a little farther than just a normal 2 day
    weekend (basically why Princeton, Merritt are hot spots on regular 2 day weekends for LMrs)

    As for the MD study, i know most of us are hoping to get more answers.
    What comes of it, i am not overly optimistic about however.
    I have tried to tell the FN individual as well as some of the hunters that...wait for the study.
    For me it will answer why i see so many mature doe with yearlings, year after year, but not seeing any growth in pops in there.
    And it does appear now to be trending downward.
    The mature buck trend has been like that for some time now.

    But, that still doesn't have much to do with all the added traffic into the area.
    And this is an area I hunted for 40 years now, and the other parties as well.
    Fires or not, it started before then.

    My only opinion on higher numbers of hunters is due to them not thinking it thru when they closed R5 and what would all those
    displaced hunters do.
    If you cant hunt in your yard, you try and hunt as close as possible to it.
    I think that is what has happened.

    And now, many groups are starting to talk about adding further closures or restrictions.
    That's not a complaint, that's just what i am seeing/hearing starting to develop.
    Just a messenger with a few of my own thoughts to boot!

  9. #19
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Tons of huge MD bucks posted on the Facebook HuntingBC page, more than I’ve seen in years! Just cuz you’re not seeing them or you’re not seeing them on here I don’t believe is a real reflection of what’s happening! K

  10. #20
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by f350ps View Post
    Tons of huge MD bucks posted on the Facebook HuntingBC page, more than I’ve seen in years! Just cuz you’re not seeing them or you’re not seeing them on here I don’t believe is a real reflection of what’s happening! K
    Okay, fair enough, I have seen them too.
    But, are they coming from these MU's?
    And if so, would it make you happy to hear the FN want full out closures (or at least rotational ones in these MU's).
    These other groups of hunters are not new to the game.
    They hunt hard, they hunt weekly some of them.
    Some, half in age of me who have grew up there and some work around there.
    They know all the little cubby holes and do break their asses to get into those spots.
    The fact is, they just arent seeing them.
    And its not about Tanks.
    Its about not seeing many bucks that are past the age of 3.

    Also, does it make you happy that some of these hunters are also now talking more and more about having the Any Buck
    season removed? (again, doesn't matter to me as i only hunt 4pt areas anyways).

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