Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

[Bugle M In]

It will take 20-25 years to get back what was lost if they deal with the wolves...

Yes, i would agree with that.
There is also some hypocrisy amongst hunters as well however. (and i am guilty of it as well)
We all show up to hunt MD/Elk/Moose, but most of us never show up to hunt Wolves or other Preds.
For me, its not easy to find the time to travel or come up with the cash for these trips that easy.
I assure you, if i lived an hour away, I would be there!!

I know the one group of long timers also probably spends 0 time hunting Preds in there.
But, the other group of young guys, who are more local, do pound the coyotes into the ground each year.
Not sure about their attempts on Wolves.

[MichelD]

MichelD,

As for running into hunters.
I hunted 30 of those years and maybe only 3 times in those years did i cross paths with another hunter.
Back then, all you heard were trucks driving and road hunting.
Exactly like you say.

But, the last 10 years, after the closure, it changed.
last year, i watched 3 different groups tackling a climb up a mtn and all were at different stages of the climb, and none knew the
others were above/below them.
At the same time, i saw hunters on several other hills and making their climbs.
That day, i ran into 2 separate pairs of hunters where i hunted.
And they were new to the entire area???

I think what happened is when R5 closed, a lot of experienced hunters that hunted elsewhere before the closure, came in.
And then word of mouth etc from there.

Example, look at the WK Elk and the many complaints we hear now.
When it was LEH, it limited the hunters obviously.
Also, because it was LEH, it also limited the "experience" of the hunters that won.
I am certain some won the tags and had very limited knowledge of the area/s or much elk hunting experience to begin with.
And there were those that won who knew where and how to hunt them.
So, a good mix of limited hunter #'s.

BUT, once it opened to GOS.
Well then, the best of the best of elk hunters in the province showed up, no longer limited by a permit.
And as we all have heard, it only took a couple of years for most of the tanks to fall.

Tells us things.
Too high a hunter # in an area leads to more game taken (it has to).
And hunters do know how to hunt better than ever before!

No argument from me about what you're saying.

[Bugle M In]

Brings up a question to the Ranchers for me.
As i stated, it sounds like there are new signs going up, so some hunters are going to be in for a huge surprise.
I don't know how it will turn out if i wanted to ask for permission, or for others, although i do know who to ask and we know a few
of their ranch hands.
(FYI, i haven't stepped foot on there in 30 years anyways, but its an area a lot of hunters do do!)

So, my question is (I guess to someone like Gcreek)
If hunters approached a Rancher, in the off season asking to help them with trying to whack some wolves etc, would more
Ranchers then consider offering those same hunters opportunity to hunt for other ungulates on their land when the time comes?
These days it sure seems to be hit or miss about getting permission and sounds like more are told no when asking then get
a yes.
Just wondering if that kind of approach would work and thus benefit both sides???

[horshur]

My questions 1) how much mortality is related to hunting? I think I read that it is only 5% of total mortality. If so reducing hunting has little impact 2) What is happening to winter range? This is the key limiting factor and we are losing lots to development.

Hunting as it stands should contribute to higher carrying capacity because it removes the surplus animals. It is supposed to emulate natural mortality. You can have higher surplus because they are removed before winter(GOS). We are however in what is called a predator pit. What seems to me to be a disconnect is that in a natural open system nature controls the population thru predation, starvation,disease, low fertility ect. There is no surplus! In order to have a surplus the mortalities need to be manipulated. Management in a word. There is plenty of current scientific articles that are observing that habitat enhancement and manipulation is not having the effect they predicted. Because the predators just camp on the goods. They may even contribute to higher numbers of predators because high rodent/small game recruitment in burns subsidizes canine/feline diet. Ungulates are choosing marginal habitats instead of running the gauntlet which leads to higher mortality anyway and so the circle goes round.

[Stillhunting]

With the 1 MD limit for the interior, all regions should align with region 3's season to spread out the pressure. Hunter's (unless they are concentrated in a small area) don't really impact the populations as much as other factors, so further restrictions won't achieve much. Typically, newer hunters aren't that successful, so a bunch of wannabes who watch YouTube videos aren't much of an issue either. Best we can do is to harvest preds and WTs.

[Bugle M In]

Hunting as it stands should contribute to higher carrying capacity because it removes the surplus animals. It is supposed to emulate natural mortality. You can have higher surplus because they are removed before winter(GOS). We are however in what is called a predator pit. What seems to me to be a disconnect is that in a natural open system nature controls the population thru predation, starvation,disease, low fertility ect. There is no surplus! In order to have a surplus the mortalities need to be manipulated. Management in a word. There is plenty of current scientific articles that are observing that habitat enhancement and manipulation is not having the effect they predicted. Because the predators just camp on the goods. They may even contribute to higher numbers of predators because high rodent/small game recruitment in burns subsidizes canine/feline diet. Ungulates are choosing marginal habitats instead of running the gauntlet which leads to higher mortality anyway and so the circle goes round.

Yes, I certainly seen WT picking areas they wouldn't normally be, and avoiding the areas they should be in, and most likely
is due to avoiding factors like wolves.
Fairly certain that is the general rule of thumb for most ungulates.
I think some reasons like elk for example in the EK, are staying in their Winter Ranges all summer long is due to avoiding
wolves, which isn't good for the winter Range as far a supplying feed for the following year, and the fact that traditional
summer range is 4x more nourishing then what they are now feeding on but maybe to afraid to walk the gauntlet.

And when they do, they get hammered.
Talk to a fellow who works daily in the area I hunt elk.
Told me they watched a small pack of wolves push 6 cow elk into a boxed canyon.
Day 1 after they got boxed in, there were only 5 standing.
A day later, 4 left standing.
Day after that, only 3.
Last sighting was only 2, and then nothing. (not sure if those 2 escaped, but everyone gets the picture)

Truly the best example of a Predator Pit......literally!

[Ambush]

Maybe someone can post a direct link to this study. It's US but still relevant.


https://www.themeateater.com/conserv...3nTxiv8x3r_1bs

[Bugle M In]

Maybe someone can post a direct link to this study. It's US but still relevant.


https://www.themeateater.com/conserv...3nTxiv8x3r_1bs

Our current study will also show how big a factor Cougar is.
I get why many, especially if you are a Rancher, will be concerned with wolves, and we all should be.
But the study does seem to be shedding a light on Cougars certainly.

Neither Wolf nor Cat contribute to some areas getting over saturated with hunters.
Closures do that!
And look at the result after this past summer.
Big MVC in some big areas now.
It will benefit some hunters certainly, but most will have to "crowd in" where they still can at least drive to a good spot hunt.
And we are certainly going to have more big fires, so i guess that means more and more MVC's coming.
So, it just adds to the problem now for the future, imo.
And the fact that MVC only applies to RH, not FN.

If we are going to have more big fires, we need a better plan.
Certainly an ATV/ORV closures are necessary in Fire Zones.
But rather than just shut it down, leave the main FSR open, but start getting in there with big machines and lets close
off all the inactive side/spur roads!
At least then, it limits "everyone"!
We are all in the same boat then!
Still leaves some opportunity for all.
But at the same time reduces the impacts of hunters.
We need to do that anyways, all over the province, regardless if its seen a fire or not.
And then limits everyone the same way, not just some.

[LBM]

Maybe someone can post a direct link to this study. It's US but still relevant.


https://www.themeateater.com/conserv...3nTxiv8x3r_1bs

Been seeing this happen for years, cat numbers dropping. Another thing with the wolves is they will follow the cats taken there kills which in turn wears the cat down, leading to starvation, which in turn
may cause it to hunt other food sources. In some areas the cats are being just about wiped out, with humans being the number one reason for it but things like this are
definately a contributing factor.

[LBM]

Dont hunt region 5 or 3 so cant speak about it but some of the storys sound a bit dramatized for effect, but some of the region 4 stuff is for sure.