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Thread: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

  1. #111
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    [QUOTE=Rob Chipman;2301131]From that report:

    "However, overwinter fawn survival differs by region and significantly by year...."

    I think that's the key info we're looking for and I expect we'll see some of it soon (varying significantly by year indicates that the longer the timeline the more we'll know, always remembering that time is in short supply). There is currently a fair amount of talk about what *seems* to be occurring (as in "I was recently told....") and I think that leads most of us to the same place: what are the straight goods on this? How many fawns, especially female fawns, are surviving to reproductive age? I expect we'll see that info fairly soon based on who's doing the research and how many of us are anxiously awaiting it like Bugle indicates - change it from "what I heard" into "fact")


    thats one of the problems with studys, people think the end result is the same all over. Every region is different and many times areas with in a region have different causes, and then they can be flawed like for example lets have a open season
    on whitetail does for a few years to drastically reduce the population then do a study on cats to see what they eat, almost like it what was part of the plan to get certain results. also with many of the studies its just following the beeps or points
    from the collars not enough on the ground stuff to see what happens in betwee

  2. #112
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LBM View Post
    Been seeing this happen for years, cat numbers dropping. Another thing with the wolves is they will follow the cats taken there kills which in turn wears the cat down, leading to starvation, which in turn
    may cause it to hunt other food sources. In some areas the cats are being just about wiped out, with humans being the number one reason for it but things like this are
    definately a contributing factor.
    Hmmm...
    I mentioned that to my hunting partner when we found the wolf scat this last trip and saw that it was full of deer hair.
    I said to him that I wondered if the wolves were actually killing the deer right now, as there isn't any snow (where they excel at)
    right now, and if in fact they are "stealing it", or maybe just chowing down on a hunters kill?
    But, again, the study "does vary".
    Arrowstone certainly has more Cougar kill observed than the others areas.
    As for the study, they are doing the best they can with what they have.

    Want a great study, then i guess you have to collar not only Doe and young, but I guess some bucks as well as the Cougar/ Bear
    and wolves in the area, to get a perfect picture?
    I am sure there are plenty of willing participants that would put in the personal time to do so, but again, lack of money I gather.

    We live in a Province where we restrict or close to deal with issues, but we never go after the real issues to make it better.
    Same like salmon and steelhead.

  3. #113
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    Our current study will also show how big a factor Cougar is.
    I get why many, especially if you are a Rancher, will be concerned with wolves, and we all should be.
    But the study does seem to be shedding a light on Cougars certainly.

    Neither Wolf nor Cat contribute to some areas getting over saturated with hunters.
    Closures do that!
    And look at the result after this past summer.
    Big MVC in some big areas now.
    It will benefit some hunters certainly, but most will have to "crowd in" where they still can at least drive to a good spot hunt.
    And we are certainly going to have more big fires, so i guess that means more and more MVC's coming.
    So, it just adds to the problem now for the future, imo.
    And the fact that MVC only applies to RH, not FN.

    If we are going to have more big fires, we need a better plan.
    Certainly an ATV/ORV closures are necessary in Fire Zones.
    But rather than just shut it down, leave the main FSR open, but start getting in there with big machines and lets close
    off all the inactive side/spur roads!
    At least then, it limits "everyone"!
    We are all in the same boat then!
    Still leaves some opportunity for all.
    But at the same time reduces the impacts of hunters.
    We need to do that anyways, all over the province, regardless if its seen a fire or not.
    And then limits everyone the same way, not just some.

    The habitat enhancement I refer too are Federal parks.....NO HUNTING. SAME OR WORSE DECLINES!!! Jasper and Banff
    It is well to try and journey ones road and to fight with the air.Man must die! At worst he can die a little sooner." (H Ryder Haggard)

  4. #114
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    Brings up a question to the Ranchers for me.
    As i stated, it sounds like there are new signs going up, so some hunters are going to be in for a huge surprise.
    I don't know how it will turn out if i wanted to ask for permission, or for others, although i do know who to ask and we know a few
    of their ranch hands.
    (FYI, i haven't stepped foot on there in 30 years anyways, but its an area a lot of hunters do do!)

    So, my question is (I guess to someone like Gcreek)
    If hunters approached a Rancher, in the off season asking to help them with trying to whack some wolves etc, would more
    Ranchers then consider offering those same hunters opportunity to hunt for other ungulates on their land when the time comes?
    These days it sure seems to be hit or miss about getting permission and sounds like more are told no when asking then get
    a yes.
    Just wondering if that kind of approach would work and thus benefit both sides???
    To answer you truthfully, some might, we prefer to hire professionals that will remove the whole pack with traps.

    I have heard too many hunters that passed up opportunities at wolves or coyotes because they thought it would compromise there hunt for deer or moose. This concerns me about the care some have for our ungulate numbers.

  5. #115
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    "I have heard too many hunters that passed up opportunities at wolves or coyotes because they thought it would compromise there hunt for deer or moose. This concerns me about the care some have for our ungulate numbers."

    Ungulate numbers isn't the first foremost thought on the minds of that hunter. That hunter is more concerned about the care for the prey he kills
    While its possible to whack a predator without missing a beat on an deer/elk trail, it's not for everyone

    Agree with your point about having pros take care of a pred problem properly, there is a right and a wrong way, and doing things the wrong way can just exacerbate the problem
    On the other hand having multiple hunters applying pressure to preds can sure mess up their hunting program, and possibly take out a breeder before they contribute in the spring
    yin and yang
    Never say whoa in the middle of a mud hole

  6. #116
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by gcreek View Post
    To answer you truthfully, some might, we prefer to hire professionals that will remove the whole pack with traps.

    I have heard too many hunters that passed up opportunities at wolves or coyotes because they thought it would compromise there hunt for deer or moose. This concerns me about the care some have for our ungulate numbers.
    Okay, just curious.
    I know many hunters think if they fire their rifle, everything leaves the valley.
    Rifle Fire does not scare game away, or not far.
    One time we took 2 bull elk 15 minutes apart, while gutting one the other popped out.

  7. #117
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by boxhitch View Post
    "I have heard too many hunters that passed up opportunities at wolves or coyotes because they thought it would compromise there hunt for deer or moose. This concerns me about the care some have for our ungulate numbers."

    Ungulate numbers isn't the first foremost thought on the minds of that hunter. That hunter is more concerned about the care for the prey he kills
    While its possible to whack a predator without missing a beat on an deer/elk trail, it's not for everyone

    Agree with your point about having pros take care of a pred problem properly, there is a right and a wrong way, and doing things the wrong way can just exacerbate the problem
    On the other hand having multiple hunters applying pressure to preds can sure mess up their hunting program, and possibly take out a breeder before they contribute in the spring
    yin and yang
    Fair enough, didn't really consider that when I asked the question.
    Funny though, we criticize about the fact we don't do our part in hunting preds and only pursue ungulates.
    But then we criticize ourselves for doing it wrong.
    I suppose that could be a new chapter in the Hunting CORE curriculum

  8. #118
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Is it possible that a potential reason for the high Cougar kills is because the Wolves are stealing their kills, and thus the Cougar
    is more often on the prowl to kill again?

    Don't get me wrong here folks, we certainly have seen how wolves kill directly, but I am wondering if in some areas, like some
    of these study areas, if there is a link to what i said above?

    When I saw the latest study, I wasn't so surprised about the mortality due to Cougar, nor the Bears.
    But, I was quite astonished at how low the wolf kill #'s were so far.
    In the one study area, I know they have been active for about 10 years now, and they seem to always be around in November
    when I am hunting, obviously following the deer.
    But, I have yet to come across a kill by wolves to date up there.
    I know Cougar do, as i had a pm recently of a fresh MD killed by Cougar (still warm), and my hunting partner came across a
    cougar kill a couple years ago, and then there was that FB of that fellow near Kammy lk that took pics of that cougar killing a
    doe right in front of his truck while filming the 6 doe just before the cougar struck, so we all know they do.

    But, i am not there other than November and half of December at best, so i cant say what really goes on thru the year.
    The Study so far shows wolf kill fairly low.

    Again, not stating anything here, but just an observation, and I do cover a lot of ground when i am in there, on many hills.
    Just surprised as to why the deer mortality due to wolf is so low in the study?

    I think they have just recently started a Cougar study I believe in the same area as the MD study.
    Last edited by Bugle M In; 11-29-2021 at 08:42 AM.

  9. #119
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    Is it possible that a potential reason for the high Cougar kills is because the Wolves are stealing their kills, and thus the Cougar
    is more often on the prowl to kill again?

    Don't get me wrong here folks, we certainly have seen how wolves kill directly, but I am wondering if in some areas, like some
    of these study areas, if there is a link to what i said above?

    When I saw the latest study, I wasn't so surprised about the mortality due to Cougar, nor the Bears.
    But, I was quite astonished at how low the wolf kill #'s were so far.
    In the one study area, I know they have been active for about 10 years now, and they seem to always be around in November
    when I am hunting, obviously following the deer.
    But, I have yet to come across a kill by wolves to date up there.
    I know Cougar do, as i had a pm recently of a fresh MD killed by Cougar (still warm), and my hunting partner came across a
    cougar kill a couple years ago, and then there was that FB of that fellow near Kammy lk that took pics of that cougar killing a
    doe right in front of his truck while filming the 6 doe just before the cougar struck, so we all know they do.

    But, i am not there other than November and half of December at best, so i cant say what really goes on thru the year.
    The Study so far shows wolf kill fairly low.

    Again, not stating anything here, but just an observation, and I do cover a lot of ground when i am in there, on many hills.
    Just surprised as to why the deer mortality due to wolf is so low in the study?

    I think they have just recently started a Cougar study I believe in the same area as the MD study.
    I remember years ago a bio was talking at the wild sheep society meeting. he said they had a collar on a female cougar with kittens. In one week she killed like 5-7 sheep. People were shocked that a cougar needed to eat that much. The bio said she didnt, but the 50 or so coyotes that found the her and the kill would. He said the cougars may get a few mouth fulls then the coyotes woudl chase them off the kill. She basically had to kill daily to survive as the yotes chased her off and ate the deer.

    So I assume coyotes may be doing the same now too. Just another nail in the coffin for the deer population.

    BHB
    Quote Originally Posted by BiG Boar View Post
    Are you M or F? Might get more takers with tits.

  10. #120
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    Re: Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    Is it possible that a potential reason for the high Cougar kills is because the Wolves are stealing their kills, and thus the Cougar
    is more often on the prowl to kill again?

    That is absolutely possible. I'm not sure how common it is but I ran across that exact story recently from the states. A big tom was getting chased off his kills by, iircc, both wolves and a bear.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

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