"Damn near extinction:" Interior steelhead run expected to be very small

[Harvest the Land]

They should've been listed under SARA years ago like the govt's own fisheries scientists were recommending, but McKenna, Wilkinson and the Turd all said no cause they didn't want to alienate the FN's by forcing them to get their nets out of the lower Fraser. Makes me want to puke.

If FN's really are better stewards of the land and natural resources as they claim to be, then why haven't they voluntarily taken their nets out of the river?

Its pretty obvious that when these lower Fraser FN bands and politicians say they care about recovering our salmon and steelhead populations that they're being entirely disingenuous and deceitful.

Get the nets out of the river and list these fish under SARA. Until that happens nothing will change

[adriaticum]

That’s a rather alarmist outlook. You need only look to our brothers south of the border to see that hunting and angling can thrive with a population of 328 million on roughly 1/3 of the land mass we have.

Sure it's alarmist.
Imagine if Canada triples it's population, what do you think will happen to the US?
It will triple too, most likely double.
Canada and the US will not be the way they are currently (border wise). There will be some border changes and integration.
I fully expect that there will be some Schengen style "free" movement of people and goods.
Which means development will also be rampant.
Hunting in the US in many states is nothing like hunting Canadian public land. Only some western states have public land the way we do.
US has already experienced some of it's major loses in terms of fishing. Columbia river for example.
We've lost the Fraser only about 10 years go and it will be a bit more to lose the Skeena.
But it will happen.
I consider the Fraser lost. I'm sure many would disagree.

US is not a third of Canadian land mass. Don't know where you got that. US is 5-ish percent smaller or so.
Plus US has more livable area than Canada by a large margin.
US climate is much better.
Unless you consider Tuktoyaktuk a livable area.

[adriaticum]

Its pretty obvious that when these lower Fraser FN bands and politicians say they care about recovering our salmon and steelhead populations that they're being entirely disingenuous and deceitful.

Get the nets out of the river and list these fish under SARA. Until that happens nothing will change

Frankly, FN bycatch is a small percentage of the problem.
It's a problem by not as much as commercial fisheries in the ocean.
By some estimates Ocean fish have declined overall by 50 percent in the past 40 years.
Significantly more in many areas/species.

But because Thompson steelhead was such a small run it's noticeable.
If the run was 3000 fish in 1970 and 100 fish in 2020, it's an 85 percent decline.
It follows a regular trend.
If we keep fishing international waters at the rate we are (China, Japan) the ocean is ****ed.

I would like to see bans on fishing and any exploitation of International waters.
Chinese and Japanese fishing fleets have been raping the oceans now more than ever.
Once they start building nuclear powered fishing vessels, they will be able to stay out in the ocean indefinitely.

To be honest Sea Shepherds, those aggressive environmentalist militants are starting to look more appealing to me by the day.

[Harvest the Land]

Frankly, FN bycatch is a small percentage of the problem.
It's a problem by not as much as commercial fisheries in the ocean.
By some estimates Ocean fish have declined overall by 50 percent in the past 40 years.
Significantly more in many areas/species.

But because Thompson steelhead was such a small run it's noticeable.
If the run was 3000 fish in 1970 and 100 fish in 2020, it's an 85 percent decline.
It follows a regular trend.
If we keep fishing international waters at the rate we are (China, Japan) the ocean is ****ed.

I would like to see bans on fishing and any exploitation of International waters.
Chinese and Japanese fishing fleets have been raping the oceans now more than ever.
Once they start building nuclear powered fishing vessels, they will be able to stay out in the ocean indefinitely.

To be honest Sea Shepherds, those aggressive environmentalist militants are starting to look more appealing to me by the day.

Curious, do you fish the tidal Fraser? If so, surely you must have seen the commercial (when there used to be openings for them) and FN's throwing steelhead and Coho overboard haven't you? Because I've seen it first hand for years I absolutely believe bycatch of steelhead in the Fraser is a major issue so we'll just have to agree to disagree there.

You don't really think bycatch of steelhead in the pacific Ocean is more of a problem than bycatch in the Fraser do you? How many folks do you know have ever caught a steelhead in the ocean?

[Livewire322]

Sure it's alarmist.
Imagine if Canada triples it's population, what do you think will happen to the US?
It will triple too, most likely double.
Canada and the US will not be the way they are currently (border wise). There will be some border changes and integration.
I fully expect that there will be some Schengen style "free" movement of people and goods.
Which means development will also be rampant.
Hunting in the US in many states is nothing like hunting Canadian public land. Only some western states have public land the way we do.
US has already experienced some of it's major loses in terms of fishing. Columbia river for example.
We've lost the Fraser only about 10 years go and it will be a bit more to lose the Skeena.
But it will happen.
I consider the Fraser lost. I'm sure many would disagree.

US is not a third of Canadian land mass. Don't know where you got that. US is 5-ish percent smaller or so.
Plus US has more livable area than Canada by a large margin.
US climate is much better.
Unless you consider Tuktoyaktuk a livable area.

My bad, square miles vs square KM. My point still stands. The contiguous states cover less area than Canada and host a population of 328 million - they still have hunting opportunities. Will things change? Yes. Hunting opportunities today in BC are a shadow of their former states, but they are still great. Far more, the issue will be contesting with private land ownership, as is the case in many states and Europe.

Hospitable land isn’t the issue, look at cities like São Paulo and Hong Kong - 12.3 and 7.4 million people. Both cover half the area of the GVRD. Heck, Tokyo proper has a population of 13.9 million in an area roughly the size of the GVRD. People are stackable like lego.

As for your conjecture on a new quasi-schengen zone including the USA and Canada, keep dreaming. The proliferation of arms in the USA isn’t a problem that can be solved. I don’t care what bans the governments think up, people down there will not turn in their guns, and the Canadian population largely wouldn’t tolerate free flow of that over to here. And that’s just one barrier to it happening.

The simple fact is that there will still very likely be hunting and fishing opportunities in a Canada with 100 million people, just as there is in a USA with 328 million people.

[adriaticum]

Curious, do you fish the tidal Fraser? If so, surely you must have seen the commercial (when there used to be openings for them) and FN's throwing steelhead and Coho overboard haven't you? Because I've seen it first hand for years I absolutely believe bycatch of steelhead in the Fraser is a major issue so we'll just have to agree to disagree there.

You don't really think bycatch of steelhead in the pacific Ocean is more of a problem than bycatch in the Fraser do you? How many folks do you know have ever caught a steelhead in the ocean?

I agree with you to a point.
Yes it's reasonable to assume that chances of catching a steelhead from a Thompson run is greater in the Fraser, but we can't even fathom the amount of commercial fishing that takes place in Alaska and in the top 1/3 of the Pacific ocean.
Do you really think some Chinese commercial fisherman catching cod, or salmon, can tell a steelhead?
They just take the bycatch that they don't want and grind it into dog food.
Yes, I fish the Fraser and I haven't personally seen any steelhead caught in the nets, I've seen them dead on the banks.
Steelhead hang in the same places salmon hang in the ocean.
I would bet my money that more get caught in salmon nets in the ocean.
Although I have no way to prove it, other than sheer numbers.
At least our commercial fishermen and FN know what steelhead are and are required to release them.
Which is not the same for most of the other fishermen.
Fraser river fishermen and FN fishing in their own back yard are aware of the issues, while international commercial fishermen don't care about the isssues.
They just come to load up their boats and leave as soon as possible.

[Livewire322]

Frankly, FN bycatch is a small percentage of the problem.
It's a problem by not as much as commercial fisheries in the ocean.
By some estimates Ocean fish have declined overall by 50 percent in the past 40 years.
Significantly more in many areas/species.

But because Thompson steelhead was such a small run it's noticeable.
If the run was 3000 fish in 1970 and 100 fish in 2020, it's an 85 percent decline.
It follows a regular trend.
If we keep fishing international waters at the rate we are (China, Japan) the ocean is ****ed.

I would like to see bans on fishing and any exploitation of International waters.
Chinese and Japanese fishing fleets have been raping the oceans now more than ever.
Once they start building nuclear powered fishing vessels, they will be able to stay out in the ocean indefinitely.

To be honest Sea Shepherds, those aggressive environmentalist militants are starting to look more appealing to me by the day.

On this we agree. We should treat incursions of those fleets like the Argentinians do - send them to the bottom.

[adriaticum]

My bad, square miles vs square KM. My point still stands. The contiguous states cover less area than Canada and host a population of 328 million - they still have hunting opportunities. Will things change? Yes. Hunting opportunities today in BC are a shadow of their former states, but they are still great. Far more, the issue will be contesting with private land ownership, as is the case in many states and Europe.

Hospitable land isn’t the issue, look at cities like São Paulo and Hong Kong - 12.3 and 7.4 million people. Both cover half the area of the GVRD.

As for your conjecture on a new quasi-schengen zone including the USA and Canada, keep dreaming. The proliferation of arms in the USA isn’t a problem that can be solved. I don’t care what bans the governments think up, people down there will not turn in their guns, and the Canadian population largely wouldn’t tolerate free flow of that over to here. And that’s just one barrier to it happening.

The simple fact is that there will still very likely be hunting and fishing opportunities in a Canada with 100 million people, just as there is in a USA with 328 million people.

Well, I agree with you.
There will still be hunting and fishing, there just won't be much killing/catching.
All we have to do is lower our standards and it will all be ok.

Why should a Canadian live in a 1000 sqft home, when in Hong Kong families live in 200 sqft just fine.
My 2 bdrm condo is 1350 sqft.
Now all new condos 2 bdrms in are 800 or less.
In 20 years they will be 500 or less.
I really feel my white privilege obstructing my view.

[adriaticum]

In 2021, the average living space of public rental housing tenants in Hong Kong was 13.5 square meter per person. In the same year, the proportion of households with living space per person below 5.5 square meters was 0.5 percent.

145 Sq Feet.

[Livewire322]

In 2021, the average living space of public rental housing tenants in Hong Kong was 13.5 square meter per person. In the same year, the proportion of households with living space per person below 5.5 square meters was 0.5 percent.

145 Sq Feet.

The topic isn’t living conditions, it’s hunting and fishing opportunities in our country/province.

As you’ve pointed out with the commercial exploitation of fisheries by certain countries, the growth of global population represents a clear threat to the natural world. I think that the growth of certain other countries is far more of a problem than the growth of our own to 100 million over the next 79 years.


Short of a good old fashioned war or plague, there is SFA that can be done to prevent the population explosion. China tried the plague route recently and it hasn’t done all that well at reducing the population significantly…