Why such a need to kill animals.

[mod7rem]

Each point can be explained away somehow, either mistakes in counting tines or judgement length, or mistakes in identification,
I don't think someone turning in a short sheep for CI has bad intentions

Things like jumping fences or shooting beef have more purpose, more intent, and point to a general disregard for others property, goes with the theft from camps , trucks, boats etc
There is also likely a small portion that just want to blast something, anything, to experience the kill, the bullets effect, the blood, can just hope it is short lived.

The point about what is appropriate for size/ age is purely judgemental, if the 'bou was legal I don't see the problem, we know the breeding is still getting done or there would be no leh opp.

To make a moral judgement of someone elses legal kill is also a problem

I completely agree.

[Ron.C]

^^^^Bingo. I've always thought LBM was Chris Darimont under cover, and starting divisive threads like this only furthers my belief

To be clear I wasn't referring to LBM or his original post, but how threads seem to migrate to creating divide by attacking other groups.

And for what it's worth, I have no idea who Chris Darimont is. But LBM is one of a few locals that has helped me me by sharing information on elk/deer and seasonal updates for an area I like to hunt. He's also provided me a phone number and offered me assistance ( if I was in a jam) when I went solo in the past.

[mod7rem]

Your response is a very good idea. I have heard it before, and after some reflection and looking at the number of people now hunting sheep, I think it's time. You don't hear of to many 40" rams anymore. I lot of just legal ones. At least on LEH, you can regulate the hunting pressure and manage the opportunity so there are more quality Rams out there. You could also put a bite of a damper on those who think sheep hunting is some kind of extreme endurance sport, and put more emphasis on the quality of experience of being in high places and watching sheep behavior. That's a good teacher in itself.

Before we jump straight to LEH, why don’t we figure out if there is actually a sustainability problem with Thinhorns first.
One of the reasons you don’t hear much talk of 40” rams anymore, is because it’s not a common way of referring to good rams anymore. It’s seems old school now. Most sheep hunters I know all refer to total inches. Everyone wants a 170”+ ram.

[Harvest the Land]

To be clear I wasn't referring to LBM or his original post, but how threads seem to migrate to creating divide by attacking other groups.

And for what it's worth, I have no idea who Chris Darimont is. But LBM is one of a few locals that has helped me me by sharing information on elk/deer and seasonal updates for an area I like to hunt. He's also provided me a phone number and offered me assistance ( if I was in a jam) when I went solo in the past.

Fair enough Ron. I didn't state that I thought LBM wasn't a good guy. He just has plenty of seemingly anti hunting or anti killing in this case (particularly anti predator hunting) posts, and this one is par for the course. This is a pro hunting (and killing) forum after all.

BTW is his first name Chris?

[VLD43]

Before we jump straight to LEH, why don’t we figure out if there is actually a sustainability problem with Thinhorns first.
One of the reasons you don’t hear much talk of 40” rams anymore, is because it’s not a common way of referring to good rams anymore. It’s seems old school now. Most sheep hunters I know all refer to total inches. Everyone wants a 170”+ ram.

Good point. So how many 160 + rams are taken each year. My comments you quoted were posted after a lot of thought. I was thinking mostly of conservation, and hunt quality. I think it would be great if there were more opportunities to hunt and possibly harvest a ram that was 170. Presently it seems there is a foot race just before opening day to get into a spot and shoot the first legal ram a guy sees. As the hunting community grows and there is more pressure put on sheep populations, something has to give. I would rather see things regulated earlier on to preserve what we presently have and possibly improve things. Not that the record books are the definitive reference to go by, it seem that a lot of the big rams were shot in the 60's and 70's. 40 to 45" rams are few and far between these days. 37 to 39" rams seem to be the norm. If more rams were left to mature longer then it only stands to reason, sheep populations would be impacted less and hunt quality would improve. And no, I don't think the thinhorn sheep populations are presently in trouble, but that could change in short order. So why not be proactive before things change, which you know they will.

[mod7rem]

Good point. So how many 160 + rams are taken each year. My comments you quoted were posted after a lot of thought. I was thinking mostly of conservation, and hunt quality. I think it would be great if there were more opportunities to hunt and possibly harvest a ram that was 170. Presently it seems there is a foot race just before opening day to get into a spot and shoot the first legal ram a guy sees. As the hunting community grows and there is more pressure put on sheep populations, something has to give. I would rather see things regulated earlier on to preserve what we presently have and possibly improve things. Not that the record books are the definitive reference to go by, it seem that a lot of the big rams were shot in the 60's and 70's. 40 to 45" rams are few and far between these days. 37 to 39" rams seem to be the norm. If more rams were left to mature longer then it only stands to reason, sheep populations would be impacted less and hunt quality would improve. And no, I don't think the thinhorn sheep populations are presently in trouble, but that could change in short order. So why not be proactive before things change, which you know they will.

I understand what you’re saying and I also feel strongly about conservation. But before we set out to solve a problem, let’s make sure we’re actually facing a problem and then clearly define what that problem is. These threads seem to go the same way. They start off about conservation concerns, then turn into lack of trophy opportunities concerns, ethics,,,,,,. I think that there is so much info at our fingertips these days, that it’s easy to get a false sense of what might be going on. Every year I see multiple pics of some awesome rams that get taken, but I also think that it’s less common for people to enter these things in record books. Social media seems to be the new “record books”.
Ive been hunting sheep for almost 20 years and I remember one time (maybe 15 years ago) stopping at a taxidermist for a compulsory inspection after a caribou hunt. The number of fresh ram skulls in his shop was shocking to me at the time. He must have had dozens and dozens all lined up and tagged waiting for mounts. He said all from that season. I remember thinking how can there be any left out there, and this was only one taxidermist. Maybe if hunters at that time could see the harvest rate in a visual way like that, it would have been alarming but out of context to the big picture. My point is that all this imagery and rumor can be alarming, but any changes made should go by data.

[VLD43]

I understand what you’re saying and I also feel strongly about conservation. But before we set out to solve a problem, let’s make sure we’re actually facing a problem and then clearly define what that problem is. These threads seem to go the same way. They start off about conservation concerns, then turn into lack of trophy opportunities concerns, ethics,,,,,,. I think that there is so much info at our fingertips these days, that it’s easy to get a false sense of what might be going on. Every year I see multiple pics of some awesome rams that get taken, but I also think that it’s less common for people to enter these things in record books. Social media seems to be the new “record books”.
Ive been hunting sheep for almost 20 years and I remember one time (maybe 15 years ago) stopping at a taxidermist for a compulsory inspection after a caribou hunt. The number of fresh ram skulls in his shop was shocking to me at the time. He must have had dozens and dozens all lined up and tagged waiting for mounts. He said all from that season. I remember thinking how can there be any left out there, and this was only one taxidermist. Maybe if hunters at that time could see the harvest rate in a visual way like that, it would have been alarming but out of context to the big picture. My point is that all this imagery and rumor can be alarming, but any changes made should go by data.

Good post. Agree with all your points. Not trying to stir the pot here, just concerned with maintaining a healthy robust sheep population. Thanks for your insights. I guess I will have another look at things.

[HarryToolips]

If the critter you are hunting is by definition in the regs legal to shoot you now have a choice.If the critter is not legal to kill,the choice is simple,don't shoot.
There is no such thing in my books as squeekers.

100%....again, that's why they state in the regs if in doubt, don't shoot...

[LBM]

I understand what you’re saying and I also feel strongly about conservation. But before we set out to solve a problem, let’s make sure we’re actually facing a problem and then clearly define what that problem is. These threads seem to go the same way. They start off about conservation concerns, then turn into lack of trophy opportunities concerns, ethics,,,,,,. I think that there is so much info at our fingertips these days, that it’s easy to get a false sense of what might be going on. Every year I see multiple pics of some awesome rams that get taken, but I also think that it’s less common for people to enter these things in record books. Social media seems to be the new “record books”.
Ive been hunting sheep for almost 20 years and I remember one time (maybe 15 years ago) stopping at a taxidermist for a compulsory inspection after a caribou hunt. The number of fresh ram skulls in his shop was shocking to me at the time. He must have had dozens and dozens all lined up and tagged waiting for mounts. He said all from that season. I remember thinking how can there be any left out there, and this was only one taxidermist. Maybe if hunters at that time could see the harvest rate in a visual way like that, it would have been alarming but out of context to the big picture. My point is that all this imagery and rumor can be alarming, but any changes made should go by data.

Yes some good points, but when you say go by data, what data are you talking just harvest numbers.
Have you stopped into any shops last few years and seen that number of rams.
Not that it matters but been chasing sheep around since the late 70s and have seen quit a few changes.
There is LEH talk going around but may be more focused on bighorns.

[nelsonob1]

If you have hunted long enough you will understand how mistakes are made. The government has made us into point and size counters and inevitably, and for many reasons, mistakes are made. Simply report the error, pay the ticket and move on with a lesson learnt.

For those who prefer to stand in judgement, take up badminton, the game would better suit you.