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Thread: Who force fetches their labs?

  1. #11
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    Jul 2016
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    Re: Who force fetches their labs?

    There is a difference between Pros and the first time dog handler,you can't compare the two.
    When you see the dogs that "wash out"with the so called Pros then I wonder about their training methods too.

    @Dakota Creek,Personally,I don' t start heel training with a leash either.it is off leash and only when the pup understands where the right position is do I attach a leash.

    Just my opinion

    Rainer

  2. #12
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    Dec 2008
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    874

    Re: Who force fetches their labs?

    Force fetch (poorly named) has very little to do with forcing a Retriever to retrieve. It’s more about guiding and directing a Retrievers natural instinct to retrieve in a way that establishes good mouth habits and proper delivery. It sets a standard for many other aspects of training a finished Retriever.

    Done correctly and with patience there is very little stress on the animal. I’m going through the process now with a six month old and he runs into the room full of excitement and bouncing with enthusiasm and can’t wait to get grabbing and holding the objects I’m asking (and compelling) him to.

    Force fetch is an outdated term. Most people today use “trained retrieve” to describe the process. Like most things it’s evolved over the years and is no longer done the way it was. It is a very small step in a 52 plus step training program that, if done correctly and with patience, should result in a reliable, enthusiastic and well trained hunting companion or a competitive canine athlete.

    Rainer: Unfortunately, like most things, there are still dinosaurs who call themselves trainers who haven’t advanced their knowledge and methods over the years. Your comment on how you start a dog off heeling is the same philosophy most use in the trained retrieve…..show them the correct behavior first, then add direction, guidance and standards as their understanding develops.

    Brent: That’s a nice pup in your video. Looks like they got a good one.
    "Guns kill people like spoons made Rosie O'Donel fat"

  3. #13
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    Cedar B.C.
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    Re: Who force fetches their labs?

    THANK YOU LABGUY!!! Great explanation. We as trainers have and are continually evolving. No one wants to screw up a good dog least of all the competent trainer. Anyone who thinks different does not understand the modern methods. Ita all about your dogs natural retrieve drive and delivery being honed. I "force" broke our friends Black &Tan because it would unintentionally kill small animals while bringing "presants" to its owner. 4 weeks later Orion delivers live squirrels, rabbits young waterfowl , and frogs unharmed to his owner to be released. It's a great tool if taught and used right.
    Last edited by Foxton Gundogs; 07-23-2021 at 11:58 AM.
    "BORN TO HUNT"
    Foxton's Cuervo Gold "KEELA" Oct. 2004-June 2017. Always in my blind and my heart.

  4. #14
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    Jun 2010
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    Re: Who force fetches their labs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakota Creek View Post
    Any training involves some sort of “pressure” for the dog. How do you teach the dog to heel? On a lead and as the dog moves ahead of you, do you not correct the dog by pulling the dog back into the correct position beside you? That too is pressure as with repetitions, the dog will understand that if they heel beside you, no “pressure” will be applied for any needed correction. Teaching a puppy to sit? Gently pushing the puppy into a sitting position is also pressure.

    For those who follow a training programs (like those by Mike Lardy, Evan Graham, Chris Akin, Rick Stawski or Bill Hillman) … all use an e-collar and ALL properly collar condition their dogs to learned skills PRIOR to moving into new skills. And if you understand this conditioning, the lowest discernible stimulation is used for training …. Likely less pressure than you would use to teach your dog to heel with a slip lead.
    Save your Breathe Sue! Complete waster of time talk to this guy about anything retrieving related.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bear Brawler View Post
    Just lob a couple loaded mouse traps at em like you're playing horse shoes. More humane than bouncing darts off them.

  5. #15
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    Jul 2016
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    Re: Who force fetches their labs?

    Quote Originally Posted by lorneparker1 View Post
    Save your Breathe Sue! Complete waster of time talk to this guy about anything retrieving related.
    Because only Lab Owners know how to teach a retrieve?! Pretty ignorant statement!

    Rainer

  6. #16
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    Re: Who force fetches their labs?

    Quote Originally Posted by jagen mit DDrs View Post
    Because only Lab Owners know how to teach a retrieve?! Pretty ignorant statement!

    Rainer
    Because any time one of these type of threads come up, you are constantly putting down training methods you have no experience with and don't have the slightest grasp of. There are people in this thread , that can and have a trained a dog using "force methods" that would blow your mind with more style then you could ever imagine. Have you ever been to a field trial? Do you live in the lower mainland? There is one next weekend, and one the weekend after. You should come and see how capable these dogs are, and how happy they are to do it. I will be at both. Let me know and ill provide you with the details and you can come and see what its all about.
    Last edited by lorneparker1; 07-24-2021 at 09:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bear Brawler View Post
    Just lob a couple loaded mouse traps at em like you're playing horse shoes. More humane than bouncing darts off them.

  7. #17
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    Jul 2016
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    239

    Re: Who force fetches their labs?

    I didn't say that FF does not work and I'm not putting it down,what I'm saying is that FF is not the only way to train a reliable retrieve and that most novice "trainers" don't have enough experience to do this.
    Personally,I would not FF a dog and our dogs retrieve fur and feathers reliably out to 300m and more.
    There is no reason to get your knickers in a knot.
    Labguy gave a good explanation without being defensive.

    Rainer

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    874

    Re: Who force fetches their labs?

    *****

    Once again I regret participating in this thread however……..


    Quote Originally Posted by jagen mit DDrs View Post
    I didn't say that FF does not work and I'm not putting it down,what I'm saying is that FF is not the only way to train a reliable retrieve and that most novice "trainers" don't have enough experience to do this. This is indeed very true. However when the going gets really tough (multiple marks through water, reeds, heavy cover, ice etc. it’s usually a different story. And agree also that most novice trainers aren’t capable of accomplishing this without screwing something up.


    Personally,I would not FF a dog and our dogs retrieve fur and feathers reliably out to 300m and more. ​A 300 yard single mark on land is something most well bred 7 month old Labradors will do readily after a bit of training. Not a big deal. A 16 month old well trained Labrador will do triples and quads reliably and with enthusiasm and drive. A finished retriever in the final series of the National will complete a test that takes up to 30 minutes and more and includes a Quadruple set of tough marks on water out to 4 and 500 yards. They will reliably take direction (handling) to an unknown destination out to the same distances through water, cover, rough terrain etc.
    There is no reason to get your knickers in a knot.
    Labguy gave a good explanation without being defensive.

    Rainer
    There is absolutely no need to FF a Retriever if your happy with basic and fundamental abilities. Most people are happy with a dog that will pick up a bird it sees falls at 30 or 40 yards and are thrilled with a 100 yard retrieve. It’s all good if that’s what you’re happy with and want out of your dog. Some however, enjoy the training and advancing an animal to its fullest potential…..nothing wrong with that either.


    Rainer, I don’t believe you have a full and complete understanding of the reasons and benefits of a solid training program including FF. You have been invited multiple times now to come and observe but, so far, haven’t and yet you still recite the same rhetoric based on (what I believe) is an incomplete body of understanding. Until you have observed this it’s really not fair to comment or criticize.

    “If I, you, we, can’t continue to advance our training methods to make it easier and less stressful for the dog to learn, we have no business training them.” Grady Istre
    "Guns kill people like spoons made Rosie O'Donel fat"

  9. #19
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    Jul 2016
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    Re: Who force fetches their labs?

    @Labguy
    Most Labs in the hands of Handlers will never be National level dogs but people in forums like this talk about training like Pros and their methods.Truth be told,the average Lab in the hands of the once in a blue moon hunter is a mediocre dog at best.So,why talk about FF when these dogs will be the average pooch.
    It is like buying the 1000yd "sniping rig"but the owner can't shoot further than 200m and does not have the drive to be any better or does not have the knowledge to progress.

  10. #20
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    Dec 2008
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    874

    Re: Who force fetches their labs?

    Quote Originally Posted by jagen mit DDrs View Post
    @Labguy
    Most Labs in the hands of Handlers will never be National level dogs that’s for sure but people in forums like this talk about training like Pros and their methods.not sure what this means.Truth be told,the average Lab in the hands of the once in a blue moon hunter is a mediocre dog at best. Very true indeed unless it gets trained to a more advanced level. So,why talk about FF when these dogs will be the average pooch. Because that’s what this thread is and was about.
    It is like buying the 1000yd "sniping rig"but the owner can't shoot further than 200m and does not have the drive to be any better or does not have the knowledge to progress.

    It boils down to what your happy and satisfied with. Better and more competent dogs require better and more competent training which definitely means a structured program of which FF is absolutely and undeniably an integral and proven part.

    There is nothing wrong with wanting a Retriever or Versatile that hunts a few times a year and spends the rest of its time chasing sticks or playing with the kids just as there is nothing wrong with wanting a highly trained and competitive canine athlete who spends most of its life training and competing.

    The dogs don’t care what choice is made as long as it’s fun and enjoyable and the human should feel the same.


    It’s not a pissing contest or at least shouldn’t be.


    "Guns kill people like spoons made Rosie O'Donel fat"

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