Who force fetches their labs?

[mastercaster]

Even though labs are natural retrievers, usually with a lot of get up and go I was wondering who has force fetched theirs either by themselves or by a professional trainer?

I force fetched my griff so that I could have 100% reliability but is it really all that common with labs? I've met quite a few hunters who have had their labs FF'd but they were also having them trained for hunting tests so maybe they wanted the reliability, as well.

My daughter had her chocolate lab that just turned five months of age up at the cabin this past weekend and we introduced her to fetching a rubber mallard and a dokken on water. Up to that point she had only fetched some sticks thrown out on the water close to shore. This pup had an incredible retrieving drive,,,,some serious potential there, I figure!

I was thinking if she is only going to be used for hunting and not hunt tested FF'ing her later on down the road probably won't be necessary.

What do you think?

https://youtu.be/9Hb8YP_-Oe8

[Imdone]

Looks like that ones going to be a Dandy !

Dogs are like Kids. You get far more from them the more time you put in.

Congrats ! Looks like your doing things right .

[Foxton Gundogs]

I have a bit of a different approach to force breaking. I start as soon as I get the pup. I use the chew instinct. I put on a clean leather glove, give the oup 2 fingers to chew. When the pup takes it i put my thumb on their lower jaw stop them from trying to chew and give the command hold when they stop trying to chew I give the hold command again and then if they still resist chewing I give the out command and remove my fingers. I do this during most play sessions. By the time they get their adult teeth and I start serious force breaking it's a non event they are so used to it. It works on any breed and is way less stressful on the dog.

[jagen mit DDrs]

Why would you FF a dog that is willing to do what you are asking him to do?
A dog that does not retrieve to the handler does not have a Retrieving problem but the handler has a communication problem.
In any of the training subjects we try to teach our dog it is better to train through cooperation and create positive habits than thinking you can fix a problem through forcing a dog.
The percentage of dogs that fail retrieving reliability tests is the same,regardless of FF or positive reward based training.
A dog that was trained through cooperation will choose to do the right thing more reliably than a dog that is forced.knowing that he is out of the control of the handler.
FF is certainly not a Fail Save System.

Rainer

[Downtown]

Why would you FF a dog that is willing to do what you are asking him to do?
A dog that does not retrieve to the handler does not have a Retrieving problem but the handler has a communication problem.
In any of the training subjects we try to teach our dog it is better to train through cooperation and create positive habits than thinking you can fix a problem through forcing a dog.
The percentage of dogs that fail retrieving reliability tests is the same,regardless of FF or positive reward based training.
A dog that was trained through cooperation will choose to do the right thing more reliably than a dog that is forced.knowing that he is out of the control of the handler.
FF is certainly not a Fail Save System.

Rainer

100% correct and by far the better way !

Cheers

[Ron.C]

A perspective from a novice trainer, I can't debate other techniques and will only speak to the one I used.

I FF'd my pup as she was my first and I was following an established program. I watched allot of videos and did allot of reading and can see how someone can abuse this technique. That said even a leash can abused, yet allot of people can successfully use one every day.

I was apprehensive and discussed FF in detail with my breeder who is a Vet and a highly respected trainer in the retriever community. Asked allot of questions on reading the dog, power levels etc and got some great coaching. My pup was eager, full of desire. She is always excited when she know we are going to train and FF was no different. The level I used on the collar was quite low. The process was actually very simple and our FF lasted about a week from the first 5 minute session on the work bench to completing walking fetch.


Based on my experience and results as a first timer, I wouldn't hesitate to FF again.

[Dakota Creek]

Why would you FF a dog that is willing to do what you are asking him to do?

FF is not just about the retrieve …. when done properly with the minimum amount of pressure needed for the individual dog, FF is part of the conditioning process for the dog to learn and understand pressure and how to turn that pressure off.

[jagen mit DDrs]

Why does a dog need pressure?
Which pressure is the dog to turn off,the one that is applied by the handler to perform a task he does not understand?!
Why,as a trainer would you subject your dog to do something he apparently does not see any "sense" in it.

This is a training method from a time where trainers didn't understand the way a dog thinks.

Rainer

[nedarb2]

Why does a dog need pressure?
Which pressure is the dog to turn off,the one that is applied by the handler to perform a task he does not understand?!
Why,as a trainer would you subject your dog to do something he apparently does not see any "sense" in it.

This is a training method from a time where trainers didn't understand the way a dog thinks.

Rainer

tell that to the national champions and pros running dogs who all FF. If you want a hunting dog you don’t need to do it. If you want to play competitively it’s a normal thing to do.

[Dakota Creek]

Why does a dog need pressure?
Which pressure is the dog to turn off,the one that is applied by the handler to perform a task he does not understand?!

Any training involves some sort of “pressure” for the dog. How do you teach the dog to heel? On a lead and as the dog moves ahead of you, do you not correct the dog by pulling the dog back into the correct position beside you? That too is pressure as with repetitions, the dog will understand that if they heel beside you, no “pressure” will be applied for any needed correction. Teaching a puppy to sit? Gently pushing the puppy into a sitting position is also pressure.

For those who follow a training programs (like those by Mike Lardy, Evan Graham, Chris Akin, Rick Stawski or Bill Hillman) … all use an e-collar and ALL properly collar condition their dogs to learned skills PRIOR to moving into new skills. And if you understand this conditioning, the lowest discernible stimulation is used for training …. Likely less pressure than you would use to teach your dog to heel with a slip lead.