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Thread: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

  1. #61
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by willyqbc View Post
    What I do know, is there is a group of people who feel horribly wronged.


    In all honesty, do you think their feeling about that is valid? They were here. European monarchs sent people came and claim the land that First Nations lived on. In Canada the European monarch agreed that the First Nations were here first and had title and that only the Crown could alienate it from the First Nations (take a gander at the Declaration of Independence - people at the time understood what the King was doing and cited it as a reason to revolt). As a couple centuries unfolded the First nations got a sort of a raw deal and the Crown, repeatedly, and to be forced to live up to it's obligations (and they're still being forced). They have been kidnapped by force and separated from their families. They've been subject to special laws because of their race. They have worse life outcomes on many, many measures than average Canadian citizens.

    Quote Originally Posted by willyqbc View Post
    They are being told by the courts that they have a legal right to complete control of at least a portion of the land base.


    Not quite. They're being told by the courts, including the Supreme Court of Canada, what the judges in each court have determined that the law says. I'm not asking that you like those judges or their decisions, but the Courts aren't going to First Nations and advising them on stuff. The FNs hire lawyers and pursue their claims in the Canadian legal system (again, that's "whitey's" court, not an Indigenous court).

    It used to be illegal in Canada for First Nations to hire lawyers to pursue their rights, and it used to be illegal for them to raise funds to do the same thing. That's one of the reason it took them so long to win in whitey's court system. It used to be illegal for them to try.


    Quote Originally Posted by willyqbc View Post
    What in your experience tells you that in this scenario, that the FN "want" to negotiate a damn thing??


    A couple things. First, there are already FNs negotiating and collaborating on some things. Second, there are many areas where the interests of FNs and non-Indigenous hunters, anglers and conservationists align (anywhere we protect habitat or do predator control there's a really good chance that FNs are involved and a pretty good chance that they're leading the efforts). Third, most FNs don't have the capacity to do everything they need or want to do. Many Indigenous people point this out.

    Quote Originally Posted by willyqbc View Post
    ....the reality is that the courts will decide it all, regardless of what gov't is in place, and regardless of what the general public thinks.


    Um, it has always been that way whenever things can't be sorted out or negotiated without resorting to legal remedy, and that's a good thing. Would you rather that legal interpretations change with popular opinion or with whatever government is in power? WE have tried really hard to avoid that in any system based on British Constitutional law, and it is a way better approach than say....Mexico, Russia, China. Personally, I'lll take it even if I don't like all the decisions.


    Quote Originally Posted by willyqbc View Post
    i'm sure this post will be interpreted as the rantings of an evil, racist, uncaring colonizer, but thats the problem with all these discussions today....if your not following the liberal left narrative, you're not welcome in the discussion. Truly free and open discussion is DEAD in this country, on a myriad of topics.


    It isn't interpreted that way by me. What I read from you were expressions of exasperation because you live in a country that has historically had some pretty good examples of stupid leadership. As I sometimes say "We aren't a 1st World country, but we identify as one". FFS, we can't get clean water to First Nations who live in a country that has freshwater coming out of it's ass.

    You've also never heard me say "You can't talk about that". I'm a free speech absolutist and I'm *inviting people to talk*! You may *feel* like you are being silenced, but take that complaint to someone who's doing it. I'm actually inviting you to register, submit questions and give feedback.......


    .....assuming you're a BCWF member. If you're not, join a BCWF club (again, mine will let you join) or become a direct member. (Little secret: we're not going to check your ID when you submit a question or register).

    Now...how about you being honest: is there any politician who has a) a chance of getting into power anywhere in Canada who will b) not follow the direction of the Supreme Court of Canada and the Constitution as far as truth and Reconciliation goes? (Translation: do you honestly think the cavalry is coming to save you or do you understand that you need to do this yourself, here and now, with whatever tools you've got?)
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  2. #62
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Rob, I do admire your responses. Don't agree with you necessarily. But at least you take the time to read someone else's post and then the time to respond. Kudos.
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

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  3. #63
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by willyqbc View Post
    Ask yourself Rob, in all honesty....do you REALLY think the FN of this country want some sort of "partnership" with whitey??? And if you do somehow believe that....what possible evidence could you be basing that on??? The only partnership they want from us, is when they want something paid for. It is extremely clear that the FN are going after every last scrap that the courts will award them. Compromise, and partnership/sharing with whitey....is NOT on the agenda.

    Total control of vast tracts of land WILL be awarded to FN all over B.C., we will have no say on anything, including wildlife management or things like environmetal protections placed on industry.

    You rightly point out that examples of the "atrocities" committed against these people, cannot be seperated from the conversation. Absolutely fair that these events be put in the public eye to judge. But why are the atrocities FN committed against each other and white settlers not fair game to be talked about? Quick example, i was talking with a FN gentleman one day who was working with my father. He was telling me about his people and some of their history in the region. He told me a story from their history about some young hunters from a neighboring territory who dared to cross into their territory to hunt. They were caught by some of the young men from his band and once their origins were determined, they were executed. He then, full of pride, explained how all the warriors of his tribe made the journey to the neighbors territory and killed every single member of that band....men, women, children. He did not specify when this genocide occured.
    I'm sick and tired of the narrative that the evil white man is the only group of people who have committed these types of crimes against humanity. The fact of the matter is throughout history, a myriad of races, religions and govts have been unspeakably shitty to other people.

    I don't know what the answer to all this is, Trudeau senior really sunk us when he "enshrined" FN rights in our constitution. It doesn't exactly leave the courts much wiggle room. What I do know, is there is a group of people who feel horribly wronged. They are being told by the courts that they have a legal right to complete control of at least a portion of the land base. What in your experience tells you that in this scenario, that the FN "want" to negotiate a damn thing?? My sense of the situation is that all the "reconciliation" and "negotiations" are a simple PR move to try and make the general voting public "think" they have any control over this situation....when the reality is that the courts will decide it all, regardless of what gov't is in place, and regardless of what the general public thinks.

    i'm sure this post will be interpreted as the rantings of an evil, racist, uncaring colonizer, but thats the problem with all these discussions today....if your not following the liberal left narrative, you're not welcome in the discussion. Truly free and open discussion is DEAD in this country, on a myriad of topics.

    I don't mean to sound harsh, but exasperation will do that to ya.

    JMO
    Chris
    Well WELL spoken Chris ! Agree 110 % with you !

  4. #64
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Chipman View Post




    I know. That's why I said I didn't believe you were a quitter, and that's why I told you to sack up. I'm not bullshitting when I say I appreciate you putting these tough issues on the table. WE need to talk about them and in this day and age there are way too many people who self-censor.

    I think you just need to think a lot of this stuff through, accept the facts and then, and only then, figure out the most effective response.

    Now, I have to re-visit the race thing. Nobody is asking you to betray your own race. There's a reason for that. This isn't a race thing. It may look like it to you, but that's because you're not looking closely enough. The overwhelming majority of the people pushing for truth, reconciliation and the full recognition of Indigenous rights and title are not Indigenous people.

    They're white.

    The overwhelming majority of the government, both federal and provincial, is not Indigenous.

    They're white.

    You can pretend that fact doesn't exist, but when you do you are pretending.




    They all could have done better, and I'm glad to see you admitting that it didn't work out. I think you can agree that you can't say in one breath that it went *horribly* wrong and then say *but at least they got 3 squares a day*. Nobody has ever argued that the point of the Indian Act or the Residential Schools was to stop Indigenous children from starving or dying of exposure. Think about you and your bro again. If the Mounties had taken you and he, by force and without permission, from your parents, dropped you off with a bunch of strangers, and things then went "horribly wrong" and your brother ended up in an unmarked grave, would you figure it was ok because you got three meals a day and a roof over your head?

    Remember: there are Indigenous people fighting for what they want, today, through the courts, who were in that school. It's not ancient history. It's not recent history. It's the present.

    Rob, I think this is to some degree is a race thing, we whites are accused of all sorts of things, be we can't accuse anyone else.
    And the whites who are pushing for reconciliation and caterint to every whishes of the natives, are naive or don't know what they are getting into.
    The lawyers always will be there on all sides, just like bankers finance both sides of a war.

    Otherwise I agree with 180 on most of the things he said.

    By the way the UN, UNDRIP, WEF is not an ideology, it's a road map if you will, it has been planned a long time and they are carrying it out.
    Just think about Agenda 2030, Wildlands Project and a whole host of other programs.
    I wonder what's your opinion of George Soros and his support of many organizations, programs, NGOs?
    WLM
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it. - Clint Eastwood
    "Lots of critters to still shoot. And there'll be no quitters until we bag some critters" - 180grainer
    "Politicians should wear sponsor jackets like Nascar drivers, then we know who owns them" - Robin Williams

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  5. #65
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Thank you Rob Chipman/BCWF for the dialogue and important facts you've mentioned throughout this thread. The Zoom session seems like it would be an interesting listen and looks like a step in the right direction in understanding the issues, and dare I say, Reconciliation.
    Again, I see/read from a small few that are still living in the past and want to continue as the "founding fathers" did and probably will always feel unhappy of the ways things are now and the changes, both legal and moral, that are happening.

    As I'm not a BCWF member, on principle, I won't register for the Zoom session but if the intention is for a better relationship with First Nations gov'ts and peoples, then good luck. As for me, I'll be doing what I do everyday...practicing my Indigenaity singing, drumming, and celebrating life ...or maybe just putter around and tend my garden instead. (...cause we all don't sing and drum)��

    Thanks for reading
    SM

  6. #66
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    I'll say this again to see if anyone picks up on it. The Supreme Court and the Charter have made it impossible to negotiate fairly. The negotiations take place with the "explicit" understanding one side will win regardless. It's only by how much. On it's face, it's ****ing stupid to negotiate. You take it to the Supreme Court and you let them eat this mess, (err excuse me. You shove this mess down their throat. They make the ****ing decision,they take the ****ing heat). At some point. It becomes the right of the people to say "**** off". Our democracy is everyone you see every day driving in their car alone with a ****ing mask on. It's a fallacy. They're raping our Province and no one is paying attention. How many in ICU today?
    Last edited by 180grainer; 06-13-2021 at 09:21 PM.
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

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  7. #67
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    180:

    BCWF isn't in much of a position to negotiate anything. There's no sense pretending we are. Negotiations take place government to government, and as you have probably discerned, I don't have much faith in out government and don't think it represents us as well as it could. This event is to talk with BCWF members to see how we should respond to the challenge that you outline.
    Saan man:

    We're not being too strict on registration. We want feedback from members because that's who we represent, but you are free to watch and listen. No problem.

    Wildcatter:

    Fitting race into this is tricky. It clearly circulates around race and legislated racism (which we have had for well over a century). On the other hand, the divide is not along racial lines and I don't think you can assume that white people line up together, so in that sense its not a racial dispute with two races opposed to each other. Additionally, there are a lot of non-white, non-Indigenous people in Canada and especially in BC. Chinese and Sikhs, just to name two groups, have been here what? 150 years at least.

    I think George Soros is a dick. I don't think I can spend much time worrying about him though. If NGOs that he funds are doing good things, great. He has a track record of wanting to use his wealth to screw things up. A girl I went to school with about 100 years ago worked for him for years....advocating for gun control. So, yeah, I think he's a dick.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  8. #68
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Chipman View Post
    180:

    BCWF isn't in much of a position to negotiate anything. There's no sense pretending we are. Negotiations take place government to government, and as you have probably discerned, I don't have much faith in out government and don't think it represents us as well as it could.
    Which is why you need to stop doing what you're doing and think outside the box. They don't care about the BCWF cause the BCWF is too concerned about hurting feelings or being offered a chair so they can "watch" the negotiations. **** these dirt bags. There's lots of Conservative news outlets you could communicate with to articulate your concerns. Rebel News, True North, The Post Millennial. Hey man. Conservatism is starting to pick up. But it aint coming from our Status Quo politicians. Break out of the mold. Walk away from what they are doing. If you stay, it provides legitimacy. It's not a legitimate process. It's a forced process with no recourse for the major population.
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

    Collectivism is Slavery

    Support a Woman's right to arm herself.

    Jan 13th
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj9Pm8-tFuU

  9. #69
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by 180grainer View Post
    Which is why you need to stop doing what you're doing and think outside the box. They don't care about the BCWF cause the BCWF is too concerned about hurting feelings or being offered a chair so they can "watch" the negotiations. **** these dirt bags. There's lots of Conservative news outlets you could communicate with to articulate your concerns. Rebel News, True North, The Post Millennial. Hey man. Conservatism is starting to pick up. But it aint coming from our Status Quo politicians. Break out of the mold. Walk away from what they are doing. If you stay, it provides legitimacy. It's not a legitimate process. It's a forced process with no recourse for the major population.
    Well, that kinda sums it up.
    WLM
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it. - Clint Eastwood
    "Lots of critters to still shoot. And there'll be no quitters until we bag some critters" - 180grainer
    "Politicians should wear sponsor jackets like Nascar drivers, then we know who owns them" - Robin Williams

    Flush the Turd!

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    Click here to learn more 🖕

  10. #70
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Chipman View Post
    180:

    BCWF isn't in much of a position to negotiate anything. There's no sense pretending we are. Negotiations take place government to government, and as you have probably discerned, I don't have much faith in out government and don't think it represents us as well as it could. This event is to talk with BCWF members to see how we should respond to the challenge that you outline.
    Saan man:

    We're not being too strict on registration. We want feedback from members because that's who we represent, but you are free to watch and listen. No problem.

    Wildcatter:

    Fitting race into this is tricky. It clearly circulates around race and legislated racism (which we have had for well over a century). On the other hand, the divide is not along racial lines and I don't think you can assume that white people line up together, so in that sense its not a racial dispute with two races opposed to each other. Additionally, there are a lot of non-white, non-Indigenous people in Canada and especially in BC. Chinese and Sikhs, just to name two groups, have been here what? 150 years at least.

    I think George Soros is a dick. I don't think I can spend much time worrying about him though. If NGOs that he funds are doing good things, great. He has a track record of wanting to use his wealth to screw things up. A girl I went to school with about 100 years ago worked for him for years....advocating for gun control. So, yeah, I think he's a dick.

    Agree George Soros is a Major Dick!
    He's got his dirty hands in everything, (besides gun control) that has a chance to cause mayhem , division, turmoil, breakdown of society, etc.
    WLM
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it. - Clint Eastwood
    "Lots of critters to still shoot. And there'll be no quitters until we bag some critters" - 180grainer
    "Politicians should wear sponsor jackets like Nascar drivers, then we know who owns them" - Robin Williams

    Flush the Turd!

    Located and residing on the unceded territory of European Settler's traditional land.
    Click here to learn more 🖕

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