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Thread: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

  1. #31
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Thanks for the response. Theres some good stuff there and I'm glad you engage. I'm not trying to argue with you. You are communicating clearly what some people are thinking, even if I think you're going to move off your current position once you think it through a bit. I know you think you and I see things very differently, which is true, but I think that's because I've been looking at this longer, and more closely. Please take my comments with that in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
    Rob,

    I am not trying to run any interference, it was the political elite (mostly British) at the time who decided on the program they implemented.
    The different churches (not just the Catholics) were tasked with running it so why they get picked on all the time?
    And for sure they did a poor job at that, but we don't know if there were other choices, remember child mortality was very high back then
    and conditions were bad on the reserves.
    You are correct that the political elite made the past policy decisions. That's still going on today, both at the Federal and at the Provincial level. If you go back to Confederation then you are correct - most of the elite was British, but not exclusively so. Quebecois politicians played a role as well. However, the first 2 PMs were Scottish. The order is a bit screwy as Sir John A. was re-elected as 3rd PM, but the 4th was Canadian born (from Quebec) and the 5th was from Nova Scotia, as was the 6th. The 7th, Wilfred Laurier, was a Quebecer (and the PM to whom BC First Nations petitioned in Kamloops over land claims well over 100 years ago, so this isn't exactly new). Number 8 was also born in Nova Scotia. The 9th came from Ontario, as did the 11th - the 10th came from New Brunswick. The 12th was from Quebec while 13 and 14 were from Ontario. Number 15 is Pierre Trudeau, who was elected 9 years before the Kamloops school closed and who oversaw plenty of other residential schools.

    Trudeau is modern times. Probably a majority of guys on this forum remember him, and (going out on a limb here) most don't remember him fondly. So, yes, political elites made decision in the past, they make them now, and I'm not responsible for most of their **** ups. Neither are you.

    Yes, churches were tasked with implementing parts of that policy. We don't disagree on that, nor on what the policy consisted of. You may not like the bluntness, but if I'm wrong in any point of fact, let me know. The policy consisted, in part, of having armed men kidnap kids from their families and turn them over to strangers who kept them imprisoned. Now we all know that some of the policy makers had good intentions. We also know that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, so we can't pretend we're surprised when good intentions turn horrible.

    It wasn't just the Catholic Church that participated. Presbyterians, Anglicans and the United Church were involved. The latter three have apologized for their roles. The Catholic Church has not. The recent statement from the Pope commiserated with *Canadians* and was widely seen as tone deaf by Indigenous people. I think you're stretching things when you say the Catholic Church gets picked on all the time. Other groups (including the government policy makers, the RCMP, and wonder society) have been castigated. I mentioned that Pierre Trudeau has some explaining to do about this. There is currently a petition with 4700+ signatures calling for a statue of him in Vaughn Ontario to be removed. That's the father of the current PM. Are you surprised that JT is pointing as many fingers as he can at the Church? Of course he is. It's his way of saying "It was them, not my dad!"

    When you say the Catholic Church in Kamloops did a bad job of executing the task that the government gave them you understand that you're either diminishing what they did or you're saying that they did a poor job of integrating First Nations into Canadian society, they did a middling job of keeping little kids confined, and they did a really bad job of accounting for kids who died (from whatever causes) in their care.

    You have to go really far back in history to find a time when it was ok to take people's kids away, keep them away, not tell parents when their kids died, and not properly look after their dead bodies. We know that all those thing happened. No informed person disputes that. It was real and we've been talking about it for years.

    Conditions were bad on reserves, especially through the 20th Century. They're still bad and we've known that as long as any of us on this forum have been alive. People who are informed about the history know that First Nations complained to the government about these problems well over 100 years ago in BC, at times when reserves were being cut down in size or extinguished completely.

    Again, you can argue that all of this was done with the best of intentions. There's plenty of evidence in the participants own writings that would run counter to that argument, but you can try to make it. personally I'm satisfied with saying that the government, once again, ****ed up in a big way.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
    I was brought up as a Catholic, me and my brother had to go to church every Sunday, I was even an altar boy for a while,
    but I never heard or experienced such horrible acts, the priests and nuns were all decent people.
    Is it a Canadian, or North American trait, what happened here and why?
    You see the difference, right? You went to Church every Sunday, with your brother. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to assume you also went with your parents, and that after church you went home. Now imagine that you didn't go with your parents, you didn't go home, you didn't see your parents on holidays, and that your brother died and was buried in an unmarked grave. Would you ask why the Catholic Church is always getting picked on, or would you curse it's name?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
    I'm all for preserving fish and wildlife and access to, but the way I see it and the way things are going, the battle is already lost.
    Fair enough. Feel free to give up and let the world roll over you. (I don't actually believe that you've given up, but let's go with that). If all is lost as far as you're concerned, why don't you shut up and quit bitching? This cry baby approach of criticizing people who want to make a change is, quite frankly, annoying. There is no shortage of whiners in the world and you aren't making anything better by swelling their ranks.

    What's more, if you think the battle is already lost what could anything that those of us trying to improve things do that would make losing the battle worse?

    (Again, I don't think you really believe this. I think you're letting your frustration get the better of you. My solution is for you (not me) to reach between your legs. If you find anything down there remember what they're for and cowboy the **** up. I say that with love because I think you need to hear it).
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  2. #32
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
    The FN are not crybabies, they are way past that, they are now DEMANDING everything and because the lawyers, not just white
    but native, are on the take and that includes the spineless politicians, all siding with them.
    Of course the implementation of UNDRIP is their ace in the hole.
    They're demanding plenty, agreed, but that isn't because lawyers are on the take. The law is the law. It's on the FNs side in many, many instances. Their claims have been won in the Canadian legal system and been tested in the Supreme Court multiple times. Yes, they use lawyers. Yes, some of those lawyers are FNs. Yes, politicians side with what the law requires *usually after long legal battles that occur because the policiticans don't want to abide by the law*. You understand that many Indigenous people are very angry that the Canadian government is fighting Indigenous kids in court while JT makes pretty sounds with his cake hole (same MO as they do with veterans, FWIW).

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
    You talk of murder, can you show me an absolute proof?
    Perhaps bad writing on my part, perhaps bad reading on yours. I said "Nobody needs to prove murder. It's already bad enough." I'm not saying "We don't need to prove murder. We just have to make the accusation and then punish the people we think are guilty".

    I'm saying "We don't need to prove murder. I can't see, for the life of me, how we ever could prove murder. Who cares? We don't need to. Kidnapping kids from their families, keeping them against their will and burying some of them in unmarked graves is bad enough". Do you actually disagree with that? Do you think the claim that the government had good intentions or that they might have died of the flu or that in the old days it was ok to forcefully remove kids from their families makes any of that ok? I can't believe that you really do. Remember you and your bro in Sunday school.


    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
    I am not celebrating FN's discriminatory power as I'm sure many of my fellow hunters feel the same way.
    And don't tell me we are not getting discriminated against.

    Just how is that such a small percentage of the population wield so much power over the rest?
    Nobody is asking you to celebrate anything. You're a free man and can do whatever you want.

    How does such a small percentage of the population wield so much power? Wow. It looks like you're not actually looking at the world outside your window. Do you still think this is an "us vs them" contest? Wake up brother. This isn't a racial contest. The number of non-Indigenous Canadians who support Indigenous rights and sovereignty, and who want to see truth and reconciliation vastly outnumbers the number of Indigenous people making those demands.

    Go ahead and disagree, but explain this: how did UNDRIP sail though the legislature with absolutely no opposition from anyone? The answer is simple: its what the majority of Canadians want, even if they don't know what it will look like (see Jack Woodward's recent comments about BCer's not really understanding what's coming).

    Again, thanks for playing. Your input is valuable because you put hard questions on the table.

    If you want to help respond, there's room on the bus. If you just want to say that we've lost already (and if I'm wrong about you being a quitter) then pipe down.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  3. #33
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    When we talk about "the Law" being on the Indians side and we have to do X Y or Z because the court system will just screw us in the end anyways, I'm reminded of Sophie Scholl. Most of you don't know who she is and should research her. A court system that attempts to enforce ideology is doomed to repeat the atrocities it seeks to reconcile. Like the ****ing Indians weren't committing their own atrocities. I reference Sophie Scholl only as an example of how off course a systems courts can go. The law is ****ed and those that have cursed us with this abysmal attempt at reconciliation will see their reward in further violence and bloodshed. Just give it time. Our legal system has become an abomination to what is right and just in favor of what is ideological. **** the Indians and **** the court system. Look what's happening in the world right now. Look what's happening to Canada right now. We'll be on our own shortly. We'll sort it out then.

    I should have added. The BCWF should not engage or be influenced by the political wind of the day. It should maintain the philosophy that the land and it's resources should be shared equally by all peoples within the Province in recognition that we all come from the land and have a common respect for it and interest in it. Working within the system just ensures a further slow erosion of your access to your legacy and right, (unless you're an Indian). Stop giving in. Stand your ground.
    Last edited by 180grainer; 06-11-2021 at 07:41 PM.
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

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  4. #34
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Rob,

    Right, in recent history Pierre Trudeau could have done better, much better and our Sockboy puppet of course conveniently says nothing about "his" father.
    However, we shouldn't be surprised that he is always talking in circles, never giving a straight answer whenever he is asked on a whole lot of issues.
    Pointing fingers at the Church is just natural for him.
    .
    The Catholic Church has lost its way, so do the others and the current Pope is really more of an "antichrist" I think the last good Pope was John Paul II.
    Yes I did go home after the Sunday church, but that was too recent history.

    Back then when the schools started out, it had I suppose a good side and the bad side.
    The bad side outweighed the good for sure, but I mean the kids knew they will get food every day, may not been the greatest, but it was food nevertheless, a roof over their head and some sort of order in their life, they were also getting basic education. Just like you said it may have started out with good intentions, but it went horribly wrong.

    On the preservation of fish and wildlife, our hunting heritage I am hoping something positive will get done, I have not given up, certainly not rolling over.
    I will do what little I can (may not be much) and don't worry I have enough between my legs, I can prove it to you.
    When push comes to shove, let me borrow Pierre's words "just watch me" .
    When it comes to chosing a side, don't expect me to betray my own race!
    Last edited by wildcatter; 06-11-2021 at 07:33 PM.
    WLM
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  5. #35
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by 180grainer View Post
    When we talk about "the Law" being on the Indians side and we have to do X Y or Z because the court system will just screw us in the end anyways, I'm reminded of Sophie Scholl. Most of you don't know who she is and should research her. A court system that attempts to enforce ideology is doomed to repeat the atrocities it seeks to reconcile. Like the ****ing Indians weren't committing their own atrocities. I reference Sophie Scholl only as an example of how off course a systems courts can go. The law is ****ed and those that have cursed us with this abysmal attempt at reconciliation will see their reward in further violence and bloodshed. Just give it time. Our legal system has become an abomination to what is right and just in favor of what is ideological. **** the Indians and **** the court system. Look what's happening in the world right now. Look what's happening to Canada right now. We'll be on our own shortly. We'll sort it out then.

    I think we eventually have to.
    WLM
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it. - Clint Eastwood
    "Lots of critters to still shoot. And there'll be no quitters until we bag some critters" - 180grainer
    "Politicians should wear sponsor jackets like Nascar drivers, then we know who owns them" - Robin Williams

    Flush the Turd!

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  6. #36
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Didn't Whorgan just make a deal with the Taltan? How much land and resources were just given away while we all worry about wearing a mask. All of that is being done under UNDRIP. The Federal Liberals just endorsed or adopted some UN resolution on Indigenous peoples. Get it. Our Country is being run by the UN. I honestly believe that. Look where we are with COVID. Our Provincial and Federal Governments. They're all acting the same. That's not normal.
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

    Collectivism is Slavery

    Support a Woman's right to arm herself.

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  7. #37
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by 180grainer View Post
    Didn't Whorgan just make a deal with the Taltan? How much land and resources were just given away while we all worry about wearing a mask. All of that is being done under UNDRIP. The Federal Liberals just endorsed or adopted some UN resolution on Indigenous peoples. Get it. Our Country is being run by the UN. I honestly believe that. Look where we are with COVID. Our Provincial and Federal Governments. They're all acting the same. That's not normal.
    I've been saying that for the longest time.
    The UN has no business meddling in any country's affaires.
    But in Canada's case they pretty well dictate what our sockpuppet should be doing.

    Let's face it the marxists are running this world.
    General Patton said near the end of WWII "we should have went after communist Russia not Germany"
    Soon after he died in an "accident"
    WLM
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it. - Clint Eastwood
    "Lots of critters to still shoot. And there'll be no quitters until we bag some critters" - 180grainer
    "Politicians should wear sponsor jackets like Nascar drivers, then we know who owns them" - Robin Williams

    Flush the Turd!

    Located and residing on the unceded territory of European Settler's traditional land.
    Click here to learn more 🖕

  8. #38
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Ok, so now that you both have gotten that off your chests, can we get this thread back on track? More specifically, are either of you Wildcat or 180 grainer going to participate in this BCWF zoom dialogue with FN groups to discuss what the future entails and forge a path forward? Are you going to submit questions that you would like answers too?

    Or are you just going to bitch and complain about how hard done by you guys are? Are you guys even members of the BCWF? And if not, then why the heck are you posting in this thread? If you want complain about FN's, then why not start another thread in the Open Chat section and you can complain to each other?

    This thread is about asking questions about the future of hunting on FN territories and what thats going to look like. Its not about ranting against the UN or being derogatory towards FN - how is that helping the situation?
    "It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority." - Benjamin Franklin

    "The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it" - George Orwell

  9. #39
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Harvest the Land View Post
    Ok, so now that you both have gotten that off your chests, can we get this thread back on track? More specifically, are either of you Wildcat or 180 grainer going to participate in this BCWF zoom dialogue with FN groups to discuss what the future entails and forge a path forward? Are you going to submit questions that you would like answers too?

    Or are you just going to bitch and complain about how hard done by you guys are? Are you guys even members of the BCWF? And if not, then why the heck are you posting in this thread? If you want complain about FN's, then why not start another thread in the Open Chat section and you can complain to each other?

    This thread is about asking questions about the future of hunting on FN territories and what thats going to look like. Its not about ranting against the UN or being derogatory towards FN - how is that helping the situation?
    I'm going to bitch and complain. It's as productive as anything the BCWF has done with reversing the political dogma that will ensure "you" won't have access to this province in a short time. Appeasement has always been the strategy of the BCWF. And under that strategy, I've seen nothing but the slow erosion of our access to land, wildlife, and resources.

    This thread is about asking questions concerning our access to FN territories and what that's going to look and like not a beef about the UN? It's hard to separate that out as it's the UN's objectives our politicians are following. UNDRIP is what Horgan is following and that's mandated by the UN. Agenda 2030 is real. It's not a conspiracy theory. Part of that agenda is to "remove" people from the land and concentrate them in urban centers under the guise of protecting the environment. What better way than to use strategies like UNDRIP to initiate that process. Where land is deemed the property of an extremely small percentage of the population which slowly removes everyone else.

    What's happening here is predetermined. The Government is following a road map that doesn't include you. You're not negotiating anything with the FN or the Government. At least if you are, it'll be on your knees. It's time for a hard and angry NO, and give me my ****ing land back.
    Last edited by 180grainer; 06-12-2021 at 10:54 AM.
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

    Collectivism is Slavery

    Support a Woman's right to arm herself.

    Jan 13th
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  10. #40
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    Re: National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by 180grainer View Post
    When we talk about "the Law" being on the Indians side and we have to do X Y or Z because the court system will just screw us in the end anyways, I'm reminded of Sophie Scholl. Most of you don't know who she is and should research her. A court system that attempts to enforce ideology is doomed to repeat the atrocities it seeks to reconcile. Like the ****ing Indians weren't committing their own atrocities. I reference Sophie Scholl only as an example of how off course a systems courts can go. The law is ****ed and those that have cursed us with this abysmal attempt at reconciliation will see their reward in further violence and bloodshed. Just give it time. Our legal system has become an abomination to what is right and just in favor of what is ideological. **** the Indians and **** the court system. Look what's happening in the world right now. Look what's happening to Canada right now. We'll be on our own shortly. We'll sort it out then.

    I should have added. The BCWF should not engage or be influenced by the political wind of the day. It should maintain the philosophy that the land and it's resources should be shared equally by all peoples within the Province in recognition that we all come from the land and have a common respect for it and interest in it. Working within the system just ensures a further slow erosion of your access to your legacy and right, (unless you're an Indian). Stop giving in. Stand your ground.
    When we talk of the law being on the First Nations side we are not talking about an ideology being enforced unless it's the ideology that the Crown has the power to make rules but the Crown also has to abide by the rules it makes. Anything First Nations win in court in Canada in regard to rights or land title has overwhelmingly been traced back to the Crown, embodied by the government of the day, making law that is subsequently interpreted by the legal system and applied. That goes all the way back to the Royal Proclamation of 1763 and all sorts of the law has been tested multiple times since.

    I am not requiring you to have faith in or agree with the Canadian system of law, nor be happy with how it works, but it is the system under which we all live, and under which most of us have lived all our lives. The law is not the government, and the law is not the First nations. Those two parties take advantage of the law.

    UNDRIP is ideology. No question. The UN influences Canadian politics. No question. Some people don't like that (my old man decided it had gone wrong when they stopped him from doing actual peacekeeping on the Gaza Strip in '67, so opposition to the UN isn't new nor something that only you and Wildcatter worry about). However, some Canadians think the US is the best thing since self-lubricating you-know-what. And they get a say in how we do things.

    Nobody in BCWF is asking that you like the fact on the ground that the UN exists and exerts influence on our lives. It's still a fact. Your approval is not mission critical.

    I know who Sophie Scholl is. I'm not clear why a BCWF conversation with our members asking what members think about specific topics and what other topics, thoughts, fears or concerns the members have about the effect of truth and reconciliation will have on conservation, hunting, fishing and access to the resource equates with a peace activist who opposed Hitler. Who in this story, are the Nazis? Is that the First Nations, the Canadian government or the BCWF?

    When you say the BCWF should not be influenced by the political wind of the day, are you saying we should ignore the effect of legislation that has a huge impact on how our members practice conservation, hunt, fish and access the lands and waters of BC?

    And when you say "Stop giving in" and "Stand your ground", what, exactly would that look like?

    For example, in the Tsilhqot'in Nation Declared Title Lands, what exactly should the BCWF do? Dismiss TNG law and BC law and pretend it isn't real? Or encourage BCWF members to break the law?

    Or, where the government enters into a co-management agreement with the Tahltan Central Government, should we, what? Sue the government? Sue Tahltan? Wait, we can't sue, because the court system will screw us, at least according to you. Taht might be because we do not have the funds required to conduct a suit of that type, and then again, there's the little part about the government (the Crown) is allowed and indeed required, to negotiate with First Nations.

    So I'm lost. I have no clue what you're suggesting. In the words of WIliam F. Buckly How does BCWF stand its ground and not give in? You're going to need to expand on the idea and provide some nuts and bolts steps.

    I'm also confused how having a conversation about the ways that truth and reconciliation are affecting conservation, hunting, fishing and access to the great outdoors and finding out what BCWF members are thinking is somehow a bad thing. Can you explain how talking to members about what's happening in the real world is giving in?

    Use small words and pretend I'm six years old. Walk me through.


    Or....register for the townhall and submit your questions.

    If you're not already a BCWF member you can join a BCWF club (mine is taking new members) or become a direct member.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

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