National Indigenous Day BCWF Reconciliation Dialogue

[browningboy]

It will sure bite people in the ass down the road, the politicians think they are doing this great service by giving away chunks of land and “This should quiet them down”, however they will come back for more and more, then less and less tax revenue from our resource sectors?
we can all discuss this access issue and how to deal with it but I can assure you the Indians have a poker face going on, place nice now then later after all transitions are solidified they will tell you to pound sand! It will be no surprise to me, it’s just a shame.

[REMINGTON JIM]

all you NDP-ers on HERE ! You can Thank Horgan when you have NO place FREE ! to HUNT or FISH because the indians own and run it ALL ! RJ

[Rob Chipman]

It will sure bite people in the ass down the road, the politicians think they are doing this great service by giving away chunks of land and “This should quiet them down”, however they will come back for more and more, then less and less tax revenue from our resource sectors?
we can all discuss this access issue and how to deal with it but I can assure you the Indians have a poker face going on, place nice now then later after all transitions are solidified they will tell you to pound sand! It will be no surprise to me, it’s just a shame.

I think you're right in that I'm not sure that things like less tax revenue from resource sectors has been thought through. I'm not confident that government ever has a long term nuts and bolts vision, and without be unduly partisan I just don't expect the NDP to really look at how our society can generate enough funds to pay for all the stuff we want.


One thing that we need to address (and some of the questions we've received are moving in this direction): how do we address the possibility that the change that is coming will not turn into non-Indigenous people being told to pound sand?

That's a challenge all of us face at some point in our lives in our personal relations and business. A simple example is buying a house. If you're doing that in the LML you're easily entering into a million dollar plus deal where you negotiate with someone on both an adversarial and collaborative basis (The seller wants the best price and terms for the seller while the buyer wants the best price and terms for the buyer - adversarial, but the seller wants out of the house and the buyer wants in - collaborative).

There is lots of room for people to get screwed, but that's handled by getting multiple contractual promises back and forth with some pretty serious penalties for not performing the promises.

The buyer and the seller usually have two professional agents representing them, and those agents not only look out for the buyer and seller's best interests, but also guide them through to a successful transaction. The option of just not buying of selling (that is, just remaining inactive and not addressing whatever challenges the buyer and seller have) isn't an option. If you're getting divorced, or have to move for work, or someone dies or has kids means you have to do something. Getting to the future is required and unavoidable. We're all in the same position regarding truth and reconciliation.

Both buying/selling RE and T&R can be a win-lose journey, which is fine if you're the winner but sucks if you're the loser. Win-lose is often what emerges from an adversarial relationship. If you want it to be win-win you need to collaborate, but you can't just pretend we live in a world of rainbows and unicorn farts. You need enforceable commitments. A good agent gets buyers and sellers there, and if the agent isn't good there is a way to punish them and collect damages.

(Yeah, I know, a lot of people don't like real estate agents and have horror stories. Stick with me on this for a bit).

Right now we don't have anything approaching that with truth and reconciliation. The missing part are the agents who represent each party faithfully. That role *should* be filled by the government. So far they haven't really done it.

I don't know how we're going to get to a point where the feds, the province and the nations, as governments who deal with each other on a G2G basis and consider everyone else mere stakeholders instead act as agents/representatives of their clients. I think we can argue that First Nations are doing that much better than our elected representatives.

There will not be lasting reconciliation, however, if some parties get what they want and then tell everyone else to pound sand. We've seen how that unfolds already. It's fair to say that in BC the First Nations were told "pound sand" in the 1800s-1900s. Look where it got us. There's also a lesson there. I know some guys on this forum think that we'll be in some sort of armed conflict in the short term future. That might occur, but, it tool FNs in this province 150 years to get to the point where the province, for example, agreed to co-management of wildlife with the Tahltan.

If *we* don't do something there's a very good chance that we'll see changes that make our heads explode (as Jack Woodward observed earlier this year) and the dust won't settle during our lifetimes.

It's really important that we have this talk and plan for the future. We (and all our kids) are going to spend the rest of our lives there.

[IronNoggin]

... It's really important that we have this talk and plan for the future. We (and all our kids) are going to spend the rest of our lives there.

Exactly!!

And all the pissing, moaning, whining and expounding on reasons while one will not participate WILL leave those that do so (and us btw) in the dust. Choose your poison most carefully.

Nog

[RugDoctor]

Funny…every time I read/hear, “We have to work with them”….something new is given away….land, money, rights…something. Keep this “working with them” up, and you’ll end up with nothing sooner than if you start to work against them.

[willyqbc]

There will not be lasting reconciliation, however, if some parties get what they want and then tell everyone else to pound sand.

Ask yourself Rob, in all honesty....do you REALLY think the FN of this country want some sort of "partnership" with whitey??? And if you do somehow believe that....what possible evidence could you be basing that on??? The only partnership they want from us, is when they want something paid for. It is extremely clear that the FN are going after every last scrap that the courts will award them. Compromise, and partnership/sharing with whitey....is NOT on the agenda.

Total control of vast tracts of land WILL be awarded to FN all over B.C., we will have no say on anything, including wildlife management or things like environmetal protections placed on industry.

You rightly point out that examples of the "atrocities" committed against these people, cannot be seperated from the conversation. Absolutely fair that these events be put in the public eye to judge. But why are the atrocities FN committed against each other and white settlers not fair game to be talked about? Quick example, i was talking with a FN gentleman one day who was working with my father. He was telling me about his people and some of their history in the region. He told me a story from their history about some young hunters from a neighboring territory who dared to cross into their territory to hunt. They were caught by some of the young men from his band and once their origins were determined, they were executed. He then, full of pride, explained how all the warriors of his tribe made the journey to the neighbors territory and killed every single member of that band....men, women, children. He did not specify when this genocide occured.
I'm sick and tired of the narrative that the evil white man is the only group of people who have committed these types of crimes against humanity. The fact of the matter is throughout history, a myriad of races, religions and govts have been unspeakably shitty to other people.

I don't know what the answer to all this is, Trudeau senior really sunk us when he "enshrined" FN rights in our constitution. It doesn't exactly leave the courts much wiggle room. What I do know, is there is a group of people who feel horribly wronged. They are being told by the courts that they have a legal right to complete control of at least a portion of the land base. What in your experience tells you that in this scenario, that the FN "want" to negotiate a damn thing?? My sense of the situation is that all the "reconciliation" and "negotiations" are a simple PR move to try and make the general voting public "think" they have any control over this situation....when the reality is that the courts will decide it all, regardless of what gov't is in place, and regardless of what the general public thinks.

i'm sure this post will be interpreted as the rantings of an evil, racist, uncaring colonizer, but thats the problem with all these discussions today....if your not following the liberal left narrative, you're not welcome in the discussion. Truly free and open discussion is DEAD in this country, on a myriad of topics.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but exasperation will do that to ya.

JMO
Chris

[180grainer]

I think a very strong statement by the BCWF that they are becoming increasingly concerned about the disenfranchisement of all British Columbians given the scope and meaning these land claims have taken. Giving huge swaths of land and associated wealth to an extremely small percentage of the population is on its face, re-tarted. The fact that race is clearly a trump card that can only be played by one party during these negotiations, brings the legitimacy of the entire process into disrepute. Agreements made while one party is held in a state of duress can not stand, and all of these agreements should be voided.

[wildcatter]

I think a strong statement by the BCWF that they are becoming increasingly concerned about the disenfranchisement of all British Columbians given the scope and meaning these land claims have taken. Giving huge swaths of land to an extremely small percentage of the population is on its face, re-tarted. The fact that race is clearly a trump card that can only be played by one party during these negotiations, brings the legitimacy of the entire process into disrepute. Agreements made while one party is held in a state of duress can not stand, and all of these agreements should be voided.

"The fact that race is clearly a trump card that can only be played by one party during these negotiations"
That's right there!

I might add, the race card that is used against some people, those same people can not use the race card against other people.
Funny how that works

[RyoTHC]

The squeaky wheel gets the grease then the oil then the lube then quits spitting.

[Rob Chipman]

Ask yourself Rob, in all honesty....do you REALLY think the FN of this country want some sort of "partnership" with whitey??? And if you do somehow believe that....what possible evidence could you be basing that on??? The only partnership they want from us, is when they want something paid for. It is extremely clear that the FN are going after every last scrap that the courts will award them. Compromise, and partnership/sharing with whitey....is NOT on the agenda.

Total control of vast tracts of land WILL be awarded to FN all over B.C., we will have no say on anything, including wildlife management or things like environmetal protections placed on industry.

You rightly point out that examples of the "atrocities" committed against these people, cannot be seperated from the conversation. Absolutely fair that these events be put in the public eye to judge. But why are the atrocities FN committed against each other and white settlers not fair game to be talked about? Quick example, i was talking with a FN gentleman one day who was working with my father. He was telling me about his people and some of their history in the region. He told me a story from their history about some young hunters from a neighboring territory who dared to cross into their territory to hunt. They were caught by some of the young men from his band and once their origins were determined, they were executed. He then, full of pride, explained how all the warriors of his tribe made the journey to the neighbors territory and killed every single member of that band....men, women, children. He did not specify when this genocide occured.
I'm sick and tired of the narrative that the evil white man is the only group of people who have committed these types of crimes against humanity. The fact of the matter is throughout history, a myriad of races, religions and govts have been unspeakably shitty to other people.

I don't know what the answer to all this is, Trudeau senior really sunk us when he "enshrined" FN rights in our constitution. It doesn't exactly leave the courts much wiggle room. What I do know, is there is a group of people who feel horribly wronged. They are being told by the courts that they have a legal right to complete control of at least a portion of the land base. What in your experience tells you that in this scenario, that the FN "want" to negotiate a damn thing?? My sense of the situation is that all the "reconciliation" and "negotiations" are a simple PR move to try and make the general voting public "think" they have any control over this situation....when the reality is that the courts will decide it all, regardless of what gov't is in place, and regardless of what the general public thinks.

i'm sure this post will be interpreted as the rantings of an evil, racist, uncaring colonizer, but thats the problem with all these discussions today....if your not following the liberal left narrative, you're not welcome in the discussion. Truly free and open discussion is DEAD in this country, on a myriad of topics.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but exasperation will do that to ya.

JMO
Chris

In all honesty, Willy, I know better than to predict the future.

I also know better than to think of every First Nations person in the country as one monolith that all agrees on exactly what they want, and that all want the same thing.

I don't expect a partnership based on race and I don't expect that for two reasons. If we divide the country into only two categories we can certainly say there are Indigenous people in one category, but we can't say that the other category is one race and that it's the white race. I'm not sure where you live, but where I live there are an awful lot of people who aren't white.

There's also that part of me that doesn't identify as "whitey". I'm also pretty sure that nobody gives me any special privilege because I'm white. I know, I'm playing with fire because a lot of people will say "You've got white privilege and you've just committed a micro-aggression. Whatever. I don't identify as whitey and I don't govern my actions based on my skin colour. I've lived in a lot of places and health with every description of person and I don't see the point of defining myself as a special race nor aligning myself with other people because of my race.

Certain degrees of governance controls over vast tracts of land will likely occur. That's safe to say because....it's already occurred in the Tsilhqot'in Nation Declared Title Lands. You probably know thais, but the BC government offered the TNG a chance to get 2%-3% of their traditional territory through the treaty process. TNG said thanks, but no thanks, and took them Canada to court (that would be "whitey's court system"). TNG won, and now exercise control over 20% of their traditional territory and have made it plain that they'll keep pushing for 100%. Safe to say that the success of the TNG has and will continue to encourage other First Nations to go that route.

As for vast tracts of land being "awarded", I'm not sure if you mean "awarded" by the court, or "awarded" by some generous virtue signalling politician or something in between those two. It's important to remember that according to whitey's court and legal system those vast tracts of land were never actually ceded to the Crown. You and I may not like that fact, and we may regret that people long dead didn't do a better job of whatever the f*&k they were doing, but it is what it is. The reason this thread is happening is because the land, according to "whitey" was never properly alienated from the First Nations. Don't shoot me - I'm just telling you what the facts are that we have to deal with.

As far as not having any say over wildlife management or environmental protections placed on resource extraction.....wait, what?

I'm pretty sure none of us has much say over that right now. Did I miss something? Did the NDP and Liberals all agree before the election that saw Christie Clark bounced the the G-Bear hunt was coming to a close? (Answer: yes). Did they consult with "whitey" or debate it in the leg? (Answer: no). Did the Feds ask whitey if they should buy a pipeline, or shut other ones down? (Answer: no). Do the feds ask whitey when they should open or close salmon fishing? (Answer: no).

Again, I don't know what world you live in, but here in Canada you get a once every few years chance to choose between a few different political parties and once that's over we learn, once again, that the government got elected (again) and that they're going o do whatever the hell they can get away with. Do they do things differently where you live? Do they ask your opinion about cutting old growth forest or what they negotiate for habitat protection or who they allow to co-manage what parts of the province?

They sure as hell don't do that in BC. If you want politicians to do what you want you better either want the same things they do or you have to apply pressure to make their lives difficult. (And if I'm wrong on those facts, please straighten me out. I'd love to live in a perfect world where John Horgan and JT had me on speed dial so that I could review and approve their plans).

But why are the atrocities FN committed against each other and white settlers not fair game to be talked about?

Talk about them all you want. I'm the last guy stopping you. Chad Day of the Tahltan talks proudly of how the Tahltan fought and spilled tons of blood to keep their territory. Lots of FNs do the same.

The fact of the matter is throughout history, a myriad of races, religions and govts have been unspeakably shitty to other people.

Absolutely true. The difference in Canada (and this is unique as far as I know to Canda and perhaps Australia and NZ) is that we have an unbroken legal tradition and it includes the concept of "the honour of the Crown". That's a problem for your viewpoint, because it says that whitey's boss, that German king in England and his Parliament full of Englishmen who couldn't find BC on a map if they tried made a law and gave it the force of the Crown. They said that the First Nations had pre-existing title to the land and certain rights. They never defined the stuff very well (not much has changed - take a gander at UNDRIP and DRIPA. Pretty short on actual definitions).

However, long story short, what the Royal Proclamation of 1763 means, when joined with the concept of "the honour of the Crown" is that you don't get to say "Hey, it's happened everywhere so it should be no different here".

You can say that just across the line in Washington State, for example. You can't say it here until after we win the revolution and get rid of the Crown. I'm not sure that's happening soon, and I'm really sure BCWF isn't going to be leading the charge on that one.