The Ole Copper vs. Lead Debate

[willyqbc]

I have several 06's...don't shoot a copper bullet out of it, it simply doesn't have the velocity to allow for proper expansion down range.

You still won't get a 165g bullet to push past 2800fps out of an 06. Which means past 300 yards you could be shedding 30% of your velocity easily, which will make a mono bullet ineffective and it will act like a FMJ.

With all due respect...i have to heartily disagree. Myself, my son and my 2 hunting partners have been shooting barnes exclusively for 20 years now. in that time we have taken over 150 animals off 3 continents at ranges from 5 feet, to 596 yards.

I will speak specifically to the 30.06 mentioned above, as it was my primary weapon for over 10 years and is still the choice of one of my partners. He started with the 168 ttsx way back when, and never saw a reason to switch....he still shoots it today. I also started with the 168, but being a tinkerer I later moved to the 175 LRX and then the 200 LRX.

in new zealand, on a light skinned goat at 596 yards the 168ttsx started at just under 2900fps made its typical entry and exit holes and turned everything in between to soup....nicked a rib going in, but no major bone contact. Hard to imagine a better scenario for "pencilling through", but it performed perfectly

a b.c. moose shot at 400 yds with a 175 LRX started at 2800 fps.....hit a rib going in, small exit wound, lungs mangled. bull turned straight away and my follow up at the base of the neck shattered spine and blew a large hole out the throat

a B.C. moose at 465 yds broadside with a 200 LRX started at 2650 fps.....hit the ball at the bottom of the shoulder blade, destroyed the heart and bottom of lungs, carried on in a straight line and smashed out the ball on the other side as well. Major bone was hit on that one, so take that into account.

Almost all barnes have somewhat unique operation ranges....we have a list of a bunch of them on the site here. Barnes minimum impact velocities (huntingbc.ca) Note the low minimum velocities for the 168 ttsx, 175LRX and 200 LRX

In my experience, if you give yourself 100-200fps above the stated minimum speed and keep it to 1000 ft/lbs as well, you will never have a problem with the barnes. in most cases for rounds ive loaded for, this usually gives you an effective range of 550-700 yards, depending on the cartridge used.

For the OP, who it sounds like will be 400 yds and in.....its hard for me to envision anything better than the 175 LRX at around 2800fps

This is all just my personal experience and my opinion!
Take care and good luck!
Chris

[Keta1969]

I've had 2 pass through with barnes. Both on deer both under 100 yards. Both shots with cup and core would have been dead right there. So from my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE I won't use a mono bullet. Lots of guys like them but I know I'm not the only one to see this. You have to use what you have confidence in.

[835]

or by adding powder behind it. You still won't get a 165g bullet to push past 2800fps out of an 06. Which means past 300 yards you could be shedding 30% of your velocity easily, which will make a mono bullet ineffective and it will act like a FMJ. If your trying to break bones like in a bear shoulder then a mono bullet is decent, but if your trying to hit a moose past 400 yards you might regret not having the expansion to rattle around inside the vitals. granted a lung is a lung, but wierd things can happen and sometimes those lead core bullets make a mediocre shot a solid kill shot still

Fully aggree,
i didnt mention Adding powder because i assumed the OP was not a handloader. i also aggree with your differences between the mono and cup and core.
Same as the difference between a "Hunting vld" like Berger Vs whatever.... They are designed to open at slow speed way out there... hit that moose at 100 yards and that bullet grenades...

There is no right or wrong choice, really ...
i load 110TTSX in my 270 win. 3350FPS it is flat to 400. Effectivly no need for a range finder. In my 338RUM i load 250 Accubonds @ 3055 IIRC?

[Stu]

I shoot TTSX out of a .270win. Nothing I've shot so far complained about it not being good enough.

[IronNoggin]

... If your trying to break bones like in a bear shoulder then a mono bullet is decent, but if your trying to hit a moose past 400 yards you might regret not having the expansion to rattle around inside the vitals. granted a lung is a lung, but weird things can happen and sometimes those lead core bullets make a mediocre shot a solid kill shot still

Agreed. Firmly that is.

I have noted this previously, but will do so again.
My Outfitter Buddy in Alberta is a known producer of book mulies, whitetails and elk.
If you insist on running mono bullets, he will happily recommend another outfitter for you.
He simply will not allow any who hunts with him to run them. Period.
That decision was made after several longer than necessary recoveries, and several losses of game being hit with them.
I was in on a couple of the recoveries. Pencil holed, even in the right location, they can and will go a lot further than I would have ever thought possible.

Personally I will not use them as a consequence of those experiences.

Cheers,
Nog

[BCBRAD]

Killed a lot of animals with the Barnes X, both flat based and TSX, but not the TTSX, since starting to use them in 1992.

There have been a 3 or 4 that penciled right through, figured that they were dropped and pinched the opening to the cavity, but who knows.

I like the 168 TSX in the 30-06 at ~2900 ft/s and have had no issue with them.

A 200gn Accubond between 2650-2700 ft/s is noticeable step up in knock down power over the Barnes mono's.

It is comparable in performance to any of the medium calibers 33,35,36 and 375 for on game.

The Accubond with its decent BC does not shed velocity as fast as a lighter faster bullet, so as the distance gets long the Accubond will still maintain its freight train like momentum.

Also, the shrapnel produced by the bullet shedding weight, will lacerate other internal organs nearby on a less than perfect shot placement. Lead/copper has not been an issue in the meat unless one takes an ass shot.

[Tred]

So I use mono bullets primarily because the wife doesn't want "lead" in our food. I haven't had an issue with them in accuracy or expansion, so. . . I use them.

A negative I have read is that mono bullets have to be longer to gain the same weight, can be an issue with rifling, tight action, and possible expansion issues depending on energy.


I won't use cup and core for hunting as I don't like the separations I've witnessed and the lost weight. The loss of weight is some where and it is in my meat.


I'd probably give bonded a try, but again back to the wife and not having a major issue.


May be side tracked a bit, but I like Ron Spommer's video talking about Mono, Cup and Core, and Bond think he does a fair impartial review of the different types of bullet technology and shows off some of his recovered bullet collection. Check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We6OM03wSEI

Another cool review of bullet weight retention: Hunting with Non-lead Ammunition Homepage (huntingwithnonlead.org)

[mastercaster]

Been using TTSX for almost 10 years now and won't go back. Only once have I needed a follow up shot with the couple of dozen animals that I've shot during that time frame. The majority of the animals dropped on the spot.

What no one has mentioned yet is that you SHOULD drop down 20-30 gr. in your copper (mono) bullet choice compared to cup and core or bonded bullets because they retain about 98% of their initial weight which is considerably more than lead bullets that get dispersed through the meat. I use a 120 gr. in my 7-08 and 130 gr. in my .308. Both give me approx. 3000 fps.

As long as your velocity doesn't drop below 18-2000 fps the copper bullets will expand/cloverleaf enough for a good clean kill,,,,even less velocity is required for LRX bullets. Speed kills!

I like eating as healthy as possible and that means reducing heavy metal consumption as much as possible besides many other things. Other people don't seem to care about this but that's their choice. Just be aware that up to a third of a lead bullet's weight can be dispersed though out the meat because they blow apart. If you don't mind ingesting lead, go for it.

People have said when using mono bullets you can eat right up to the hole because there is far less meat damage and they're not far off with that statement based on the animals I've tipped over. That why Barnes often suggests hitting the shoulder bone. Anchors the animal on the spot with little damage to the meat.

[Stu]

May be side tracked a bit, but I like Ron Spommer's video talking about Mono, Cup and Core, and Bond think he does a fair impartial review of the different types of bullet technology and shows off some of his recovered bullet collection. Check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We6OM03wSEI

Very informative video, thanks for sharing.

[cmp88]

I shoot Barnes ttsx in 30-06, 168grn and 180grn bullets. I emailed Barnes and they said those rounds will reliably expand down to 1500 FPS. With my hand loads which are no where near the max powder recommended the bullets will reliably expand out to 650-700 yards for the 180's and 750-800 yards for the 168's. That is while keeping around 1000 Ft-Lbs of energy which is enough for a deer sized animal. Those ranges are further than most would be comfortable shooting an animal at, including myself.

Bullet drop is just something you have to account for. Each bullet is going to have a different BDC and that combined with velocity will determine how much drop will occur. You're shooting a 06...its not the flat shooter but neither is the .308 and guys were winning 1000 yard shoots with that for a long time. It doesn't have anything to do with lead vs copper. I have several 06's...don't shoot a copper bullet out of it, it simply doesn't have the velocity to allow for proper expansion down range. Stick to lead core bullets that expand easily and stay within 400 yards or spend the time at the range to know your ballistics. Velocity is king and thats why you see a lot of guys shooting a .300wm, they think its the fastest round out there and they feel the need to compensate for something