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Thread: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

  1. #11
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    There will be a lot of non-compliance, and likely much worse too.
    ...

  2. #12
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    Jack Woodward is a very experienced lawyer when it comes to working on Indigenous issues. His viewpoint can't be ignored. At the same time, some of his views in that piece are pure opinion and may not come to pass.

    One thing that hunters need to come to terms with is that most of BC is unceded land. That's not an opinion or a statement of personal political values - it's a simple fact. We can rail at John Horgan and the NDP, but the politics and politicians aren't the real cause of this and they can't do a ton top fix it.


    When the British government took control of what would become Canada the king made a pretty strong statement indicating that Indigenous title was a real thing and only the crown could alienate it from the First Nations.

    When the Crown got to BC there were a few treaties entered into (generally called "historical" treaties) but most of the province was never alienated from First Nations through treaty. The governments of the day just started claiming the land and moving First Nations here and there. (Again, this isn't a political opinion or worldview - it's just the facts).

    The First Nations took exception to it then, and kept doing it. There are several declarations through 1910-11 that show this.

    That developed into the court battles we've seen in our lifetimes, and it's clear that Indigenous people have a very strong legal case *according to Canadian statue law going back to King George*.

    That is why it's accurate to call much of BC "unceded land"; there was never any real transfer of ownership *according to Canadian (and before that British) law* .

    It's possible that Jack Woodward's predictions are incorrect, but it's more likely that they are fairly accurate.

    The Province is trying to fight this, but they're in a political bind - they're arguing that if a First Nation "abandons" part of it's territory they abandon their claims to it (First Nations and others make a counter argument that's pretty good) *but* the Province has also adopted UNDRIP (DRIPA). Kind of tough to suck and blow at the same time. Someone is going to get the hind tit and it's not going to be the guys at the table (Fns and govt) but rather this not at the table.

    What will that look like? As ElectricDyck points out, look at Region 5. Anyone wanting to hunt in Tsilhqot’in Nation Declared Title Lands has to get permission from the Tsilhqot’in National Government and comply with TNG law. That is the current state of affairs, and it is legal and it's not going to change. It's not clear if you need a BC hunting license and tags as well, but it is clear that within TNDTL the Tsilhqot'in control who hunts and fishes.

    If you want to hunt parts of R5 that a are only accessed through TNDTL you may (depending on what the TNG decides) be blocked from transiting through their territory. The legality of this has not been tested and the provincial government says they're negotiating how this can be resolved, but do not expect a fast solution. If you doubt what I'm saying check your LEH notices from the province which will confirm my statements.


    It's important to recognize how important the Tsilhqot'in are in this. They declined to go along with the BC Treaty process, chose to go through court, and they did much better than what's the treaty process had promised. Their success is a model for other nations.


    What do non-Indigenous hunters and anglers do?

    As Adriaticum says: "Could be good, could be a disaster."

    The law is not on the side of non-Indigenous hunters and anglers. Be clear on that. Do not expect the province to go to court on your behalf and win. It will not happen.

    First Nations will get an increasing amount of control over the land base.

    If you can't win in court because you don't have a good case, what do you do? My answer would be: negotiate the best outcomes that you can so that other people don't negotiate them for you.

    The province is not likely to expend much time or energy looking out for non-Indigenous hunters and anglers. I don't know how it will be done, but any non-Indigenous hunter or angler who wants to keep doing what we do over most of BC is going to have to figure out how to come to terms with and influence the new reality.

    Much as I like Surrey Boy's observations, we are not going to see and sort of SA European coalition banding together in Canada (not that it worked in SA anyway).
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  3. #13
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    Quote Originally Posted by adriaticum View Post
    It will be interesting to see what develops from this.
    Could be good, could be a disaster.
    Nothing good will come of it.
    A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life wrote a blank check
    Made payable for an amount of 'up to
    and including my life'. That is Honor, and there are way too many people
    in This country who no longer understand it.'
    You only walk this Earth once,
    make sure your tracks are deep.

  4. #14
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    Mar 2013
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    Surrey, BC
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    Quote Originally Posted by dakoda62 View Post
    Nothing good will come of it.
    I am not necessarily convinced.
    First nations and hunters/outdoorsmen are natural allies. I have always believed this.
    Our interests are very much the same.
    We have to figure out how to work together.
    If we do, we will all benefit.
    If we don't, there could be trouble.
    1. Human over population
    2. Government burden and overreach

  5. #15
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    Quote Originally Posted by dakoda62 View Post
    Nothing good will come of it.
    ONLY for the INDIAN's - the rest of us Indigenous Tax Payers of BC will be phucked over as usual ! RJ

  6. #16
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    Quote Originally Posted by adriaticum View Post
    I am not necessarily convinced.
    First nations and hunters/outdoorsmen are natural allies. I have always believed this.
    Our interests are very much the same.
    We have to figure out how to work together.
    If we do, we will all benefit.
    If we don't, there could be trouble.
    Yea - WELL good LUCK with that Belief ! - your Being very Naive ! jmo RJ

  7. #17
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    There will be violence. It’s unavoidable.
    PAPERS! Show me YOUR PAPERS!!

    I don't think crotch is the stealthiest scent for deer hunting. (Surrey Boy)

    so are you gonna stop spreading it on your nuts for your dog to lick off? (monasheemountainman)

    You weren't there and you didn't get a moose hoof to the balls. (300rum700)

  8. #18
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    Quote Originally Posted by RugDoctor View Post
    There will be violence. It’s unavoidable.
    First, a culture of non-native identity needs to form. The IRA succeeded, the Status Indians succeed because they've established among their own people an Us vs Them context that defines their identity.

    Mein Kampf lays out how to establish a culture that will sustain such a conflict. They're using that same method against us, we need to understand the paradigm.
    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricDyck View Post
    ....i dont buy ** fish ..its like buying your stolen tools back from a crack head..

  9. #19
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    ^^^K, first, the IRA was spawned by a united ethnic culture/identity that had existed in opposition to the English for.....forever.

    Indigenous people in Canada have had hundreds of fully formed cultures and identities for....forever. Status Indians didn't establish any Us vs Them context to define their identity. The very term arises from Canadian legislation that...defines Indigenous identity. You cannot pretend otherwise no matter how much you might like it.

    But it's the last part that really exemplifies why I enjoy your input (and I'm not kidding about that): do you really think we're going to have a successful movement to establish non-Indigenous rights to hunt and fish by recommending to people the we follow Adolf Hitler's playbook? I actually snorted my coffee over the screen when I saw that.

    Not to mention, Hitler's playbook didn't exactly work out so well for him, did it?
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  10. #20
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    Jan 2014
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    2,047

    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    "we will keep apologizing for it." I won't be apologizing, The natives would still be throwing rocks at their meal if we weren't here.

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