Lake access

[VLD43]

These lakes are obviously very special.

So special that perhaps they should be declared ecological sanctuaries.
No Fishing allowed.


There are lots of ways to play this game.

Or maybe the Government should pull its head out of its butt, and stop throwing the citizens of this province under the bus. All crown land should be subject to public access, as its the public that own it, no Government. We elect Government to protect the interests of the public and look after the affairs of running the province. All to often in the past Government has sided with business and industry trying to chase revenue for their coffers, with no regard for protecting the interests of the citizens of this province. One need look no further than the mess Vancouver Island is in, with lack of access and all the gates. Mt Polly mine is another one that comes to mind. When the tailing pond let go, the amount of damage done to the environment and habitat was pretty much dismissed. No clean up or large penalties, because jobs are more important than the environment. This is not unique to the provincial government, as you see it all over the country. Food for thought, next time you go to the polls.

[Ron.C]

Or maybe the Government should pull its head out of its butt, and stop throwing the citizens of this province under the bus. All crown land should be subject to public access, as its the public that own it, no Government.

exactly right!!!!!!!!!

[KodiakHntr]

Or maybe the Government should pull its head out of its butt, and stop throwing the citizens of this province under the bus. All crown land should be subject to public access, as its the public that own it, no Government. We elect Government to protect the interests of the public and look after the affairs of running the province. All to often in the past Government has sided with business and industry trying to chase revenue for their coffers, with no regard for protecting the interests of the citizens of this province.

Now I understand this isn't going to be a popular viewpoint, however.... Have you given any thought to perhaps that the government, through siding with big companies, is perhaps doing their best for the people of the province? How much money would be generated to pay for roads and hospitals and schools if those businesses didn't exist? How would anyone look after the running of the province without money to do that? Your property taxes certainly don't go very far when compared to what a multi-million dollar business pays every year in provincial and federal taxes. So maybe, just maybe, helping businesses operate IS helping the public.

Just a thought.

[VLD43]

Now I understand this isn't going to be a popular viewpoint, however.... Have you given any thought to perhaps that the government, through siding with big companies, is perhaps doing their best for the people of the province? How much money would be generated to pay for roads and hospitals and schools if those businesses didn't exist? How would anyone look after the running of the province without money to do that? Your property taxes certainly don't go very far when compared to what a multi-million dollar business pays every year in provincial and federal taxes. So maybe, just maybe, helping businesses operate IS helping the public.

Just a thought.

Your points are valid but a little tilted in favor of business and industry. While I support Business being encouraged to locate in this province, I do have concerns with how that is arrived at. There is no need in my mind to subsidize business with special deals on power, or turning an eye to environmental concerns to name a few. But to give them outright control of tracts of land that are multi use areas does concern me. I would challenge the idea that some of these multi million dollar companies pay large taxes to either Provincial or federal Governments. They usually locate where they can get tax breaks. Their employees will pay taxes for sure. But a bigger concern is the lack of regulation and guarantees companies side step. Take for instance resource extraction in the broad sense. In a number of cases once the resource is extracted or becomes to costly to remove, some of these companies just declare bankruptcy and move on. Mean while the tax payer gets to deal with and clean up the mess. Do you have any knowledge of the two big mines up in the Yukon that did exact this. The mines are now shutdown, leaching toxic chemicals into the environment and the companies involved are long gone, with their pockets full of cash. How about all the abandoned oil wells in Alberta. Who is going to pay to clean them up?

The Government is helping itself when promoting business opportunities in the province. Don't get me wrong, I am pro business, but with conditions. Most companies only care about one thing and that is profit. Fair enough. But don't kid yourself, they are not here to benefit you or me. It is all about bottom line. So regulate them, make them deposit a large sum to pay for cleanup if they neglect that role or skip town, and put the residents of this province first. Just as a closing comment, how would you like it if the Government decided to close down Northern BC to resident hunters, because they wanted it to be managed by Guide Outfitters only. They probably generate more money per animal than you generate, so the province would be doing what is best for the province right.

[IronNoggin]

Fish and game club plans to take Douglas Lake dispute to Supreme Court of Canada

"The Nicola Valley Fish and Game Club may have lost a recent court battle for public access to Stoney and Minnie Lakes, but that doesn't mean they've given up. The club is hoping to take the case to the Supreme Court of Canada to win a "precedent-setting" case for public access to waterways."


https://infotel.ca/newsitem/fish-and...canada/it81499

[KodiakHntr]

Just as a closing comment, how would you like it if the Government decided to close down Northern BC to resident hunters, because they wanted it to be managed by Guide Outfitters only. They probably generate more money per animal than you generate, so the province would be doing what is best for the province right.

Just noticed this one now VLD, sorry. If the government closed down NE BC to resident hunters and went guides only? Personally, and this is just my personal take on that, it wouldn't stop me from hunting. It would likely change up the gear I used to much lower dollar value equipment, and I wouldn't worry about seasons or bag limits or meat retention. I would be purely hunting for backstraps with gear I could walk away from without a second thought. But that's just me.

As to mines in the Yukon, or oil wells in Alberta, no idea. I don't live there, I don't work there. I know how abandoned wells are dealt with here in BC though, and it isn't exactly public taxpayer monies that go into that.
And to speak to your argument about "they generate more money per animal etc", my point previous to that was simply that the province does benefit from tax revenue generated by the DLCC by having paying guests stay and fish, it just doesn't have individual members of the public benefit recreationally from the province holding title to that land.


The one underlying aspect to this entire thread, and this entire legal battle, is that the implications of any decision that is made are far reaching and will have unintended consequences to people. The only thing I am fairly certain of is that no matter how it goes, it will cost taxpayers money. Whether it is a little bit of money, or a lot of money remains to be seen, but it will cost every resident of the province money.

[VLD43]

Just noticed this one now VLD, sorry. If the government closed down NE BC to resident hunters and went guides only? Personally, and this is just my personal take on that, it wouldn't stop me from hunting. It would likely change up the gear I used to much lower dollar value equipment, and I wouldn't worry about seasons or bag limits or meat retention. I would be purely hunting for backstraps with gear I could walk away from without a second thought. But that's just me.

As to mines in the Yukon, or oil wells in Alberta, no idea. I don't live there, I don't work there. I know how abandoned wells are dealt with here in BC though, and it isn't exactly public taxpayer monies that go into that.
And to speak to your argument about "they generate more money per animal etc", my point previous to that was simply that the province does benefit from tax revenue generated by the DLCC by having paying guests stay and fish, it just doesn't have individual members of the public benefit recreationally from the province holding title to that land.


The one underlying aspect to this entire thread, and this entire legal battle, is that the implications of any decision that is made are far reaching and will have unintended consequences to people. The only thing I am fairly certain of is that no matter how it goes, it will cost taxpayers money. Whether it is a little bit of money, or a lot of money remains to be seen, but it will cost every resident of the province money.

Thanks for the reply. The answer or solution you give to the scenario I posed about closing Northern BC is a cop out. So if you don't agree with the rule of law, you just ignore it and resort to criminal activity? As to the abandoned oil wells and mines, It matters little what part of Canada they are in, it is more the fact that Government gives industry a pass instead of a sanction. Rules for the rich and rules for the average man. Bit of a double standard. And the worst part of that is that it is done by Governments who are more concerned with jobs and re-election , than representing the citizens of the country and protecting the environment. If you project that scenario over the next 50 years, imagine what will be left. A country that is a waste land and a bunch of wealthy companies who move on to their next conquest. Not very sustainable and very irresponsible. You are right that it will cost a lot of money to correct all the missteps and bad decisions the Government has previously made, but do we just turn a blind eye to this, or do hold the Government to account. Douglas Lake is small potatoes, but it's the principle. Do you want foreign investors block access to residents? Its their playground so tough luck. What a sell out to our heritage and resources. WE are tenants in our own country? Any way thanks for your thoughtful responses. I don't agree with your logic, but respect your right to voice your opinions and defend them.

[KodiakHntr]

Thanks for the reply. The answer or solution you give to the scenario I posed about closing Northern BC is a cop out. So if you don't agree with the rule of law, you just ignore it and resort to criminal activity?

Cop out? How so? No more a cop out than your hypothetical situation. I'm thinking that you either don't understand what I wrote originally, or you don't understand the issue at stake. The province didn't "take away" the lakes in question and "give" them to DLCC.
What has happened is this:
-there are some lakes that exist
-a guy wanted to grow some cows up for market
-same guy scraped together some money and bought some land
-the guy bought the land at a time where the only thing lakes were valued for was as a place to hold water for cows to drink, and to sink a pump into to irrigate more land so more hay can be grown, and thereby more cows produced on the same amount of land
-at the time the land was bought, nobody cared about fishing
-at the time the land was bought, the value of the lake was having access to the water for the above reason
-at some point along the way, someone decided that they should start growing fish and putting them in lakes
-at some point along the way, someone decided that they should put fish in a couple of lakes that are on private land
-at some point along the way, someone at DLCC realized there was money to be made by having people fish in lakes on the private land
-at some point along the way, people who lived and worked there undoubtedly started getting fed up with having people leaving garbage around and shitting on the lakeshort
-someone thought they should take the time to look into whether there was even public access to the lakes
-someone figured out they didn't have to let people on the roads, thereby reducing garbage and people shitting around the lake (and you can't tell me that isn't an issue, because EVERYWHERE you go and there is a pullout you can find piles of human shit)
-now it is in court, and what people seem to want to ignore about this, is that it isn't about fishing the lake. You can still fish the lake. Pay the trespass fee (completely legal to charge in BC, which in this case involves having to rent a guide to take you out and make sure you don't shit on the boat launch) and go fish the lake. OR, buy or rent a helicopter on floats, go land on the lake and fish the lake. That is your right as a resident to go do that on a provincially owned piece of property. DLCC can't stop you from doing that.

There is a very big difference in the above, actual situation that is occurring, versus the simplified hypothetical scenario you posed above. In what you posed, the government simply took away an activity based on financial considerations and shut down access and by default seasons with no basis on scientific wildlife management. And also took away peoples ability to feed themselves. So yeah, I'm gonna hunt.

As to the abandoned oil wells and mines, It matters little what part of Canada they are in, it is more the fact that Government gives industry a pass instead of a sanction. Rules for the rich and rules for the average man. Bit of a double standard. And the worst part of that is that it is done by Governments who are more concerned with jobs and re-election , than representing the citizens of the country and protecting the environment.

You are showing your lack of understanding on what is actually happening here based on what you think you heard on CBC or Global. There are millions and millions of dollars being spent on abandoned oil wells (mines I have no idea and won't speak to that) being catalogued and rehabilitation plans created. And that is NOT being footed by the government. Well, some of it is technically I suppose, in that the OGC is a government organization, but it is funded through monies received from oil companies.

If you project that scenario over the next 50 years, imagine what will be left. A country that is a waste land and a bunch of wealthy companies who move on to their next conquest. Not very sustainable and very irresponsible. You are right that it will cost a lot of money to correct all the missteps and bad decisions the Government has previously made, but do we just turn a blind eye to this, or do hold the Government to account. Douglas Lake is small potatoes, but it's the principle. Do you want foreign investors block access to residents? Its their playground so tough luck. What a sell out to our heritage and resources. WE are tenants in our own country? Any way thanks for your thoughtful responses. I don't agree with your logic, but respect your right to voice your opinions and defend them.

I understand your thought process, but your thoughts are mostly based on a lack of understanding on how resource extraction and land laws in BC actually work from what I get from you reading this.
All of the anti-DLCC, pro-access-everything-I-shouldn't-have-to-pay-I-live-here people commenting on this thread seem to be of the mindset or understanding that this is some grand and elaborate scheme of a wealthy businessman to steal provincial assets away and make them his own. And maybe it is, no idea, he hasn't told me what his plans are... Never met the guy. Never been there.
And I haven't said I agree or disagree with the decision, or the situation. What I don't agree with, as a landowner, is letting people wander around at will on my property. Because currently, under the laws we have in BC, I don't have to let people do that.

[IronNoggin]

SCC to decide lake access?

"Having now had their hopes dashed by BC’s highest court, the NVFGC decided at a meeting of the executive held on March 14 to take their plea to the highest court in the country.

“We’ve decided to pursue the case to the Supreme Court of Appeal of Canada,” said McGowan.
“The bottom line, the huge issue, is that the judge ruled that if the landowner acquires a water license and raises the water over his private property, that property and the water above it is private, so you can’t get to the public part of a public lake, which is bizarre. And that affects thousands and thousands of lakes in British Columbia and Canada, which is really serious,” McGowan continued.

“It’s not a good thing for the people of British Columbia and future generations, it’s basically just a terrible ruling, it’s for the very rich and not taking into concern provincial laws and legislation and/or the people of British Columbia and future generations. It’s basically taking public property and giving it for free to rich people.”

https://www.castanet.net/news/Kamloo...t-court#328073

[gcreek]

SCC to decide lake access?

"Having now had their hopes dashed by BC’s highest court, the NVFGC decided at a meeting of the executive held on March 14 to take their plea to the highest court in the country.

“We’ve decided to pursue the case to the Supreme Court of Appeal of Canada,” said McGowan.
“The bottom line, the huge issue, is that the judge ruled that if the landowner acquires a water license and raises the water over his private property, that property and the water above it is private, so you can’t get to the public part of a public lake, which is bizarre. And that affects thousands and thousands of lakes in British Columbia and Canada, which is really serious,” McGowan continued.

“It’s not a good thing for the people of British Columbia and future generations, it’s basically just a terrible ruling, it’s for the very rich and not taking into concern provincial laws and legislation and/or the people of British Columbia and future generations. It’s basically taking public property and giving it for free to rich people.”

https://www.castanet.net/news/Kamloo...t-court#328073

It really bothers you that some people actually own things doesn’t it? Every post on this issue contains quotes about rich people in order to ignite passion into those with less.