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Thread: Wildlife Management in BC - an Organized Mess

  1. #11
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    Re: Wildlife Management in BC - an Organized Mess

    I like Mr. Saugstad's writing, and appreciate that he's taken the time, but both he and Pynn are not doing the best that they could and are ignoring significant issues.

    To the OPs question, my thoughts are that Saugstad on this one hammered a lot of bios unfairly and inaccurately, and then, almost as a second thought, trained his gun for a random shot on the real problems.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  2. #12
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    Re: Wildlife Management in BC - an Organized Mess

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Chipman View Post
    I like Mr. Saugstad's writing, and appreciate that he's taken the time, but both he and Pynn are not doing the best that they could and are ignoring significant issues.

    To the OPs question, my thoughts are that Saugstad on this one hammered a lot of bios unfairly and inaccurately, and then, almost as a second thought, trained his gun for a random shot on the real problems.
    Regardless of Evan’s lifetime achievements, he has also spent a lifetime in the bush, growing up in the Bella Coola Valley at a time when problem grizzlies were dealt with immediately and finally. I think he has a right to say what he does about how the new age of bios have different ideas than really does wildlife any favours. But what the heck, my living a lifetime in the bush and observing first hand the Province’s mismanagement means nothing to an expert like yourself either!

  3. #13
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    Re: Wildlife Management in BC - an Organized Mess

    Quote Originally Posted by gcreek View Post
    Regardless of Evan’s lifetime achievements, he has also spent a lifetime in the bush, growing up in the Bella Coola Valley at a time when problem grizzlies were dealt with immediately and finally. I think he has a right to say what he does about how the new age of bios have different ideas than really does wildlife any favours. But what the heck, my living a lifetime in the bush and observing first hand the Province’s mismanagement means nothing to an expert like yourself either!
    Hi GC, i do hope this winter is not hard on your cattle, hopefully the wolf management program brought in last year has helped your situation out somewhat. It must be so frustrating dealing with the same thing year after year. How is your hip doing, you running laps around the ranch yet
    Avatar is for all the conspiracy theory nut bars, for all the crow they have to eat when everything implodes

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  4. #14
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    Re: Wildlife Management in BC - an Organized Mess

    GCreek

    Suck'er back there a notch.

    I didn't question anyone's right to express an opinion, nor dismiss anyone's expertise, including yours (although I'm wondering how well you can read, 'cause there weren't that many words in my post and you completely f'd them up!) .

    Mr. Saugstad made some observations about BC bios that I don't think are supportable. The bios that I run into do not all come from UVic or UBC, a lot of them live in and enjoy rural BC, a lot of them hunt and I have heard them stress that we can't do proper wildlife management by focusing on one species. You can actually check where these people come from and get their education, and I think he's strayed just a little from the most accurate report on that.

    There's also the logical part - wildlife in this province is in really bad shape. It didn't get there overnight. It definitely isn't the fault of newly arrived bios because....they weren't here when it happened.


    If the new bios weren't here when we started having problems who is to blame? If you're going to blame bios (who, again, are underfunded and constantly point out that their recommendations are ignored) and you can't blame the new ones then you have to bales the old ones.

    I don't think you can blame it on the old bios for 2 reasons - they didn't make policy then any more than they do now, and, of course, you can't blame the old bios and say at the same time that they were great. On that score I think he's just bitching, and not making a solid argument. (Pretty mild critique, frankly. I'm sure both our wives give us harder times).

    It ain't the bios, old or new, who caused our wildlife and fish problem. It's policy makers who don't fund them and don't listen to the bios but rather listen to the ENGOs and abandon science.


    Now, if you want to disagree with me, excellent, but understand that I'm blaming politicians who make policy and the ENGOs and corporations who influence them, and you're blaming.....I guess the bios.


    Here's the significant issue he's ignoring while he gets hunters to fight among themselves and blame the people who gather the data and do the science: Raincoast just dropped a paper based on a speculative idea that they came up with: the idea that hunters are losing the social license to hunt because of trophy hunting.

    Get that first part straight. Raincoast is hypothesizing that there is a threat to hunters from hunters. There's no actual proof of that as far as I can see.

    The next step is that Raincoast paints itself as a group that is concerned about this and so wants to study and circulate just how much trophy hunting is bad.....not for animals, not for sustainability, not for Indigenous relations, not for the environment....no, trophy hunting is bad for...hunters. (Thank God Raincoast is out there to save us from ourselves).

    The next step is to massage the definition of trophy hunting to mean killing any of the larger predators.

    The last step is to put the solution on the table: stop the hunting of any larger carnivore because.....the social license to hunt anything will be removed.

    They imagine a problem, they present themselves as the saviour, they promote the solution. Media allies jump on the train.


    The problem was never real.

    You can use this tactic anytime. For example, say you knew of a land, far far away, and you didn't want grizzlies hunted there. You imagine a problem (grizzlies are going extinct) , you identify as the saviour, and you promote the solution that getting rid of trophy hunting will save grizzlies. We all saw that movie.

    None of the G-bear ban, nor this next move against any large carnivore hunting, includes science.

    It explicitly ignores and marginalizes science because it is an anti-scientific argument.

    Science and scientists play no role in it.

    The use of this tactic (which is pretty transparent once you see it) is a very significant threat to wildlife, reconciliations and, oh yeah, hunting. It's way more significant than any perceived problem that the underfunded and ignored wildlife bios in this province are all now graduates of some gender studies program.

    Mr. Saugstad can write whatever he likes, about whatever he likes. I appreciate the fact that he sees a problem that we care about and that he writes about it. I hope he'll think about the part of the issue I raised because I think I'm onto something and I think it's a significant threat.

    Take note that Raincoast is going to cite examples from all over, and allow that BC is not completely representative of everywhere, yadda yadda yadda blahdy blah blah, but there's only one place I know off where Raincoast influences policy: BC.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  5. #15
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    Re: Wildlife Management in BC - an Organized Mess

    There's mismanagement, there's lack of management, then there is management as viewed from different prospective with different ideals
    the truth is somewhere inside
    Never say whoa in the middle of a mud hole

  6. #16
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    Re: Wildlife Management in BC - an Organized Mess

    Maybe its time for hunters to change the narrative on so called trophy hunting
    Call it what it really is, for 99+% it is participation award to hang on the wall to remind themselves of a hunt
    Never say whoa in the middle of a mud hole

  7. #17
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    Re: Wildlife Management in BC - an Organized Mess

    Quote Originally Posted by boxhitch View Post
    Maybe its time for hunters to change the narrative on so called trophy hunting
    Call it what it really is, for 99+% it is participation award to hang on the wall to remind themselves of a hunt
    Exactly.
    There is no such thing as trophy hunting.
    People hang animal heads, just like they hang pictures of their loved ones, places and times to remind themselves of that moment.

    The only argument that hold traction with the public is "trophy hunting" of "endangered" animals.
    If you want a hunt banned you just have to promote the narrative of that animal being endangered.
    That's why these biologists always challenge the other side's biologists.
    I don't think there is a hunter out there who would hunt something that's endangered and about to go extinct.
    But anti-hunting groups promote the idea that this is exactly what we do.
    People think mountain sheep are not edible and are hunted for their fur and horns.
    I've had a friend who truly believed that.
    1. Human over population
    2. Government burden and overreach

  8. #18
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    Re: Wildlife Management in BC - an Organized Mess

    Look folks, this is how i see it, so take it for what its worth.

    I have hunted for many years, and am extremely passionate about it.
    But i dont get out as much as some do here nor do i hit the entire province on a yearly basis.
    Recently, salt water fishing has become a passion for me, instead of just fly fishing mostly for rainbows on lakes.

    I posted a while back about talking to a DFO Bio out of Merritt that works on salmon on the rivers in the area etc.

    In a nutshell when asking him stuff and getting his thought, such as:
    *they don't like hatcheries due to losing genetic diversity.
    *reason for no retention is due to low salmon returns.
    *not much to say on seal populations, but agrees they are not helping.
    *as far as FN and nets across river, and stating that the big reason for the Skeena closure was FN related, not conservation reasons, well, he wont
    say "anything".

    Since then, i have taken interest in following up on his thoughts and rationale.

    The truth i am finding:
    * that hatcheries are great, to allow the sportsman to "retain" salmon!, BUT only 10% are getting clipped.
    (So, if you want wild stocks to spawn, and don't want them caught, to keep genetic diversity, doesn't it makes sense to make sure as many hatchery
    salmon as possible are being taken??? and i found out, no one is asking for more hatcheries, so disinformation there)
    *As for seals, well, that's political, just like our wolves.
    *As for FN and changing the nets to handheld or wheel and monitored 24/7, again, means political will to change the laws and for the Bio's to "speak up".

    So, what am i getting at....it's obvious.
    The Universities now do have people preaching a different tune, almost an Anti outdoorsman who wants to harvest food approach as problematic.
    And a "feel sorry for the FN/reconciliation and it is their land only" philosophy.

    Whats the solution:

    It's rather simple but will take time.
    Outdoorsman need to run in "Politics".
    That also means to be a modern day politician, you better have a "Law Degree/be a Lawyer"
    You need to become a "Biologist" and also more "CO's", both of whom hunt/fish.

    If not, in the end, this province "will be MANAGED and GOVERNED BY ANTI's ONLY".
    Only have to look at the Green Party, and they are making ground, albeit slow right now, but they are becoming bigger, not smaller.

    We spend so much time here on Forums and in Clubs "DEBATING EACH OTHER", as to what should be done as far as rules and regulations.
    It's a joke and we are just fooling ourselves.

    The Anti's have use fighting them at every little avenue, and basically "sucker us" into "focusing on the little issues of today".
    Basically holding little carrots in front of our face to challenge them on, expending our energy, all the while with their other hand, the one we aren't
    watching, they are really "transforming the future" of hunting/fishing" into "NON EXISTENCE".

    Because they are becoming the Bio's, the Lawyers, the Government.
    They are getting to set the rules.
    Not us.

    You need power, in high places to have a voice.
    Numbers alone do nothing!
    Not unless its down right physical violence/war, and in the end, we just llok bad, like Trump supporters.

    Have to get on the "Inside", fix from within, silently, and gain authority.
    Sort of like a modern day "Hells Angel".

  9. #19
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    Re: Wildlife Management in BC - an Organized Mess

    I am not anti hunting and have said for years that if you shoot it you pack the meat out. Grizzly hunting is a trophy hunt few if any ever pack the meat out. Around the world killing a bear and discarding the carcass in the woods leaves a bad impression . . Rumor has it that Alaska sees the writing on the wall and may make it mandatory to pack out the meat. something that should of been implemented here.

  10. #20
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    Re: Wildlife Management in BC - an Organized Mess

    Bugle:

    There are lots of darts that can be thrown at DFO and DFO staff.

    But....you can't call them provincial bios. They're feds. Saugstad was talking about provincial bios.

    According to the google machine there are 28 wildlife biologists working for the province. You can track where they were educated. I think Mr. Saugstad was wrong in his assertion that they are mostly educated at UBC, UVic or SFU. That's a question of fact, not opinion. The correct information can be independently verified.

    There are lots of wildlife bios in BC who are not employed by the province but who do advise the province. I am much more familiar with them. The assertion about where they were educated is inaccurate, and the idea that they don't understand or appreciate rural BC is also inaccurate, and I know for a fact that many of them hunt.

    The idea that the new generation is mistaken in thinking we have to do things differently is clearly the wrong conclusion. What we have been doing hasn't worked, which is why we're here. We need to do things differently. To suggest that we don't is just magical thinking.


    There is no question that universities have changed their worldview over the past 5 decades. It's happened more in some faculties than in others. The argument that today's practising wildlife bios were tutored by profs who have masters degrees in gender studies and social equity, however, is a bit of a stretch, and while it generates debate and conflict it doesn't help us.

    We have some big challenges:

    1)Get the government to commit to using science to make wildlife and fish policy decisions (tough challenge, as we all know. Wildlife and fish policy must, by government mandate, start with reconciliation);
    2) Make government commit to funding;
    3) Make government policy making transparent, so that the last stage in decision making isn't the one it is now - you know, where it goes into a black box and comes out as something unrecognizable;
    4) Not let anti-hunting ENGOs dominate and define what Social License to Hunt is, and who has it.


    I think both Mr. Saugstad and you have failed to make the obvious connection between our current poor practices and wildlife bios. It ain't the bios who caused this, and they ain't the ones keeping it screwed. They're the ones being under-funded and ignored.

    If I'm wrong it doesn't have to be a clash of opinions. This link connects anyone to the 28 wildlife bios employed by the province. The first person on the list is from Mr. Saugstad's neck of the woods. She was educated and did research in U of Rennes and of Lyon, in France, Trent in Ontario, U of Manitoba and U of Winnipeg. Anyone can do the same sleuthing to prove me or Mr. Saugstad wrong on a factual, rather than an opinion, basis.

    If we move from bios working directly for the province and look at, say, the ones working on things like SIMDeer, (everyone on this forum had the chance to see the 2 recent SIMDeer update webinars and the bios working on them) what do you find? U of Florida, U of Montana, U of Idaho, UBC Okanagan, and....two bios who clearly like rural BC, one of whom, Sam Foster, grew up in Salmon Arm. They work with Dr. Adam Ford, who, again, doesn't fit the description put forward by Mr. Saugstad. Clayton Lamb? The guy who argued publicly during the g-bear hunt ban debate that the science proved conclusively that there was no scientific basis for banning the hunt? UBC, yes, but also U of Alberta and U of Montana.


    I've spent time talking to and listening to all of these guys. They do not fit the description put forth by Mr. Saugstad.

    Now, is this a big deal? Not really. I'm glad Mr. Saugstad is writing on this topic, and rather than concentrate on what he gets wrong I think it's important to celebrate what he gets right (ENGOS and government are to blame). I do not have a big problem with him or his opinions. I'd just like him to focus a bit more. That would be helpful.

    It's also important not to argue among ourselves about whether we line up behind him or behind someone else. That's just an argument where we fight among ourselves. That's no good, doesn't work and has to stop. It may be enjoyable to complain that the good old days were way better than today and that today's kids just don't get it, but its a waste of time.


    Here's the link to check the BC Government wildlife bios: https://dir.gov.bc.ca/gtds.cgi?esear...zationCode=NRO
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

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