PAPERS! Show me YOUR PAPERS!!
I don't think crotch is the stealthiest scent for deer hunting. (Surrey Boy)
so are you gonna stop spreading it on your nuts for your dog to lick off? (monasheemountainman)
You weren't there and you didn't get a moose hoof to the balls. (300rum700)
No shit, we get told we are racist, yet the systemic racism is glaring within government and especially within FN culture from the top down, to say otherwise is a complete lie.
So it seems now...this is a perfect example of systemic racism in this country, lol, its coming from the ones pointing the finger of blame, classic.
The doors song keeps playing in my head these last few months...this it the end...my only friend the end....it will be interesting if we got out with a fight or a whimper...sadly history has shown we go out with a whimper..
"Our arrows will block out the sun!" "Then we shall fight in the dark!" K.L. Government is not the solution to our problem, it is the problem. R.R. “One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.” M.F. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClJ...fYFveARiWyqjQA
I'm not making any official statement on behalf of BCWF, but as some of you know, I am a director so I can perhaps shed some light on this.
What the OP highlighted is a very widespread political change. It impacts all aspects of our society, whether the impacts are good, bad or yet to be determined. It doesn't just impact access to the land base.
BCWF can only do what it can. We don't have any sort of legislative power.
-We are not the government. We have the ability to give the government advice, and to ask the government questions. We do both of those things. Sometimes government listens and sometimes they do not.
- We are a grassroots member driven organization. We pursue the interest of our members to the best of our abilities, but we do that as volunteers. If you're unhappy with what we've done please consider volunteering. We always need help.
-We try to encourage our members to contact politicians and other influencers directly as well as through emails and letters that the BCWF prepares for it's members to make things easier.
-We do this work for BCWF members. Many BCWF members are resident hunters, but many, many BC resident hunters are not BCWF members.
-We limit the pursuit of our members' interests to those that conform with our Vision and Mission. For those who don't know what that vision and mission is, here it is:
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https://bcwf.bc.ca/vision-mission-values/
Our Vision
“Leading the conservation and wise use of British Columbia’s fish, wildlife and habitat.”
Our Mission
“To protect, enhance and promote the wise use of the environment for the benefit of present and future generations.”
- Ensure public access to recreational and outdoor activities, fish and wildlife resources and crown land
- Provide science/fact-based solutions for its members and other stakeholders in B.C.
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-If you are a resident hunter but not a BCWF member, but you want BCWF to work to pursue the interest and concerns that you have that correspond with the values and mission of the BCWF, join the BCWF. If you are a member but you're not happy with the direction of the BCWF, make your voice known. Attend AGMs (we held one today - were you there?)
-If you're unhappy with BCWF and don't want to join and think that a new entity is required, fly at 'er. If you're pursuing missions other than BCWF's that are good for BC hunters I'll join.
Now, with that said, BCWF is not happy with the current state of the CORE manual. We don't control the program, but we try to influence it. We do that with volunteers. We'd like to see changes, and we're working on that. We might be successful, but we might not be. If you're unhappy perhaps think about whether you're aiming at the right target before you pull the trigger and shoot the BCWF.
In terms of access to the land base and the politics that have brought us to where we are, don't confuse your personal political views with the legal facts of life. Indigenous rights are established in law and have been confirmed various times by the Supreme Court of Canada. They are based in the Royal Proclamation of 1793, which in layman's terms means that the King of Great Britain, through Parliament, in order to cement gains against the French in North America, recognized First Nations as holders of some degree of land title. This was followed up by the Treaty of Niagara the following year, and [hit the fast forward button] led us to the modern SCC rulings.
Additionally, there are Canadian Charter rights that support Indigenous title/sovereignty.
Lastly, there is the adoption of UNDRIP, which was passed and is law.
If you look at BCWF's values and mission you'll see that access to the land base is core business for BCWF. However, you'll also understand that BCWF can't change laws and can't over-rule the Supreme Court of Canada. We can’t tell government what to do. Additionally, we aren’t the only people government listens to. For example, when we argue that grizzly bear hunting is sustainable and provide scientific proof of that the government listens to us, but they also listen to the Commercial Bear Viewing Association and other groups who are opposed to our goals.
The fact that we don’t always get what we want (and that is a fact) doesn’t mean we aren’t trying, or that we aren’t fighting for our members. I think most of us with a mile or two under the hood understand that. You can’t always get what you want.
Can we get what we need? Maybe, but we’ll need help. Indigenous rights have been determined by the courts to be, in addition to a real and concrete thing established in law, to also be evolving. First Nations will exercise more control over access to the land base and how wildlife is hunted. Blockades as we know them will disappear because First Nations will have the legal right to deny access to large areas of BC.
BCWF understands this and is grappling with how to resolve it. Arguing that FNs don’t pay the freight, or that we are one land and one people, or that crown land isn’t a real thing are simply exercises in denying reality. FNS rights as they stand today are established in law and must be accepted (unless you advocate abandoning the rule of law as Antifa and BLM currently do south of the line). Stamping our feet and holding our breath until we turn blue won’t work either. If you want to take up arms in opposition to the provincial and federal governments, or get into armed conflict with FNs I can guarantee that it will end in tears, and not for the powers that be.
Rob Chipman
"The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
"Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey
Can we sue the government over these things? The answer is generally no. A multi-billion dollar FN legal industry exists and BCWF can’t compete.
Do we have to accept what we’re given? Again, the answer is no, but the way to change what we’re given isn’t clear, and the way forward will not be easy. As it stands now we are left with advising government, asking them to do what we want, and building relationships with other key decision makers in this new and evolving world - the First Nations themselves. Sometimes the FNs are open to the relationship building, and great things result. Sometimes the FNs don;’t want to engage. It’s free world and that’s their right.
In summary, I repeat that this is not an official BCWF position. This is my read on things. I understand that it may be received poorly, but take a breath before you dispute what I’ve said. We very likely don’t differ substantially on most values, so if you want to take me to the woodshed please do it on the basis of fact, not opinion.
If you don’t know what BCWF is doing there is a simple solution. Find out. We’re not keeping stuff secret. Join BCWF. We need your money and we need your energy and insights. Attend AGMs. Call and visit your MPs and MLAs.
If BCWF’s mission and values aren’t doing it for you, start another organization. Look at politics around the globe - every side has more than one organization pushing on the wheel. Some are more polite, and some are a little rougher around the edges. There is room for everyone, from individuals through F&G clubs through political action groups through to larger non-partisan non-profits like BCWF.
We do need to and together and stop shooting our own wounded.
Rob Chipman
"The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
"Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey
Thank you Rob Chipman for the informative post. It's a tough pill to swallow as we watch what is happening in our province and our world. Ottawa set a course many years ago and we are watching the results happen in real time now. The best hunting and fishing opportunities in our lives may be behind us now.
Rob Chipman
You are right about one thing, it will end in tears for some.
^^^^^ And not just the reconciliation/land claims/Indigenous rights process in BC. This world really seems to be going through some extreme changes. Again, some good, but there are going to be lots of surprised people with tears before we come out the other side. Widening the focus from BC to include the rest of the world, I think the US election (whichever way it turns out) is going to be like hitting a big rock when you're out on the boat. Can you imagine the riots in cities if Trump get's re-elected? Can you imagine the anger if he loses a close one?
Rob Chipman
"The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
"Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey
There has been a call for “equal rights for all” since as long as I’ve been alive. That’s over 50 years. We are at a point where the pendulum has swung well past the “equal” point, and we are now into the “punitive damages” part of the swing. Instead of equality, we are seeing “reverse racism”. We citizens of B.C. and Canada are being punished for the mere act of being alive. None of us were involved in any of our countries history be it good, bad or ugly. There is no equity in THAT!
If we’re not supposed to eat animals, how come they’re made out of meat?
BHA, BCWF, CCFR, PETA, Lever Action Addict.
I hear what you're saying, Redthies. We face a tough challenge, but we need to respond to it in an effective way.
I couldn't help but remember something that I witnessed at BCWF's AGM last year in Ft. St. John. A nice lady from the provincial government gave a talk on reconciliation. Everyone listened politely but in the closed session a member stated (and I hope he's on this forum and reads this):
"That was the lamest exercise in white guilt that I've ever heard."
My initial impression was "OK, don't say that in your outside voice, because you're not really helping. There's a tidal wave coming and you're complaining that the beach is dirty".
And then he said:
"We don't need indoctrination about reconciliation. What we need is education"....
....and I recognized that the guy had better vision than me and that he had put one right through the bullseye. He had summarized in less than 20 words what we need to do in the hunting community.
Reconciliation and land claims and Indigenous rights are happening and are going to continue to happen.
Complaining that we're seeing reverse racism or that there is no equity in what's happening or that people alive today are not responsible for the actions of the past is not an effective response.
It's not effective because it only preaches to the choir. It doesn't convince anyone on the other side of the argument that any aspect of the evolving process is a bit offside. It just reinforces their belief that anyone resisting these changes is an unreconstructed racist.
Indigenous rights are enshrined in a ton of law, they benefit a large legal industry as well as politicians, and they are powered by a population that has valid grievances and an increasing ability to demand that those grievances are remedied.
Hunters do not have anywhere near that many rights enshrined in law.
Hunters do not support a large legal or political industry.
Hunters do have some valid grievances, but we have a very undeveloped ability to try to have those grievances remedied.
It's important for us to recognize, as the guy at the Ft. St. John AGM clearly did, that Indigenous people in this country have a long history of valid grievances, and that they are way bigger than what hunters have. We can't equate the two. For a few examples consider:
- Canadian legal tradition recognizes and accepts precedent and common law principles. Indigenous people have common law and statutory rights that have been ignored for centuries. That's why their current legal position is so strong;
-Canada does have systemic racism. You can get offended by that statement, but if you are please explain how we have standing legislation (The Indian Act) that mandates different legal treatment for Canadians based on their...race. (You can expand on the systemic racism part, but we don't have to. If there is actual legislation in force that treats humans differently on the basis of race, you've got systemic racism. Don't feel bad if you never saw it that way. The premier of Quebec screwed up on that recently, so you're in good company).
I can continue the list, but we don't have to. To come up with an effective response that preserves hunters' access to the landbase in order to hunt we just need to recognize that First Nations have a valid reason to be unhappy with the status quo.
We also need to stop crying out loud about the unfairness of it all. It may be unfair, and we might be every upset about that unfairness, but it's going to fall on deaf ears.
I don't think I'm wrong is saying that there are a few very possible developments that we'll see in the future:
-Grizzly bear hunting restricted to FNs who then sell those hunts to rich American trophy hunters, combined with silence from the urban latte animal rights crowd;
-no access to large areas of treaty lands unless fees are paid to the relevant bands;
-a requirement for multiple hunting licenses from multiple levels of government;
-multiple sets of hunting regulations from multiple levels and forms of government;
- enforcement of confusing rules that is executed jointly by FNs governments as well as the Province.
If you don't like that picture you need to band together with other hunters and come up with an effective response. It won't be easy.
We also need to recognize that perhaps our fight isn't with FNs. To a greater or lesser degree it's very possible that we actually have a lot in common with the FNs (for example, how many FNs love Trudeau? How many guys on this forum love Trudeau? See? A lot of us have something in common with FNs).
If you don't want to band together then do nothing aside from complain in a way that the other side finds irrelevant. I don't think you'll be happy with the result.
Rob Chipman
"The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
"Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey