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Thread: moose cull to save caribou?? wtf

  1. #131
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    Re: moose cull to save caribou?? wtf

    Quote Originally Posted by bearvalley View Post
    Retiredguy, great post and you nailed it.
    Some of us were around during the Greenpeace shenanigans and got in on part of that rodeo first hand.
    Getting back to caribou problems... there have been recent studies done in BC (currently unpublished) that have been undertaken to try and get to the root of what’s causing caribou declines. These studies were done in areas that are/were seeing industrial resource use and landscapes that were roadless with no resource extraction whatsoever.
    Samples were taken to determine if there were health issues....2 things came up.
    The caribou carried a mycobacterium that could cause abortions but most likely had built an immunity and this was not a major factor.
    The second flag was elevated “stress” levels in caribou populations from all herds sampled.
    When this showed up in caribou that were not in a resource extraction/human pressured area it pointed in one direction.
    Predator pressure.
    This was solidified through inventory work.....for example on caribou population showed 17:100 for a calf count but a year later the yearling count was 2:100.
    This is a crashing population.
    Were present wildlife managers are failing is that they’re bandaid patching and don’t deal with the big picture.
    In the case of many caribou herds that need recovery work...killing wolves and moose won’t get the job done if bears and other factors are ignored.
    I guess it’s just easier to kill “momma moose & baby moose” than it is to take the heat and get the job done right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Retiredguy View Post
    Many of you on this forum were not even alive when it happened, but BC lost its ability to effectively manage wildlife back in the early 80's. That was when the province came under a controlled and systematic attack by international anti-hunting/wolf loving groups spear headed by Paul Watson of Greenpeace (at the time) and their movement Project Wolf. Dr. Elliott was a provincial biologist that was doing wolf control in NE BC, which was using poison originally, until he initiated the shooting from helicopters method.

    The international press went after the wolf cull like a dog with a bone and the general public lapped it up. This was also the period when trapping was also under attack globally and the anti-grizzly hunting movement, as well as the anti-trophy hunting push really started in earnest. Nothing has been the same since. The provincial government lost its backbone back then. It took a long time and pushes by the anti groups every few years, but their tactics have proven very effective. Along the way they have managed to create a situation where global hysteria erupts at the hunting of all charismatic mega fauna...you know, wolves, big cats, pachyderms and bears. Wolf control and grizzly hunting has become a topic for the provincial government that seems to have the same effect as the topic of abortion to the federal government.

    All these years later we now see that grizzly hunting is no longer a legal activity in Canada except in the Yukon and to a very limited extent in the NWT and Nunavut. Any wolf control is done under a cloak of secrecy, because if word gets out to the wrong people the backlash can be swift, and is potentially both a political and career killer. Then when you factor in the Supreme Court of Canada decisions regarding First Nations and Metis "harvest" rights...well the province no longer really practices game management. They practice hunter control, but there again it really only amounts to control of "licensed" hunters.

    With the caribou, well it has become a global issue as caribou herds are experiencing huge declines in many places and the woodland caribou are just one of the various areas of focus with caribou management. In Canada there are not just the mountain caribou herds in BC in trouble, there are the woodland caribou across the country in the northern boreal forests (and we won't get into the problems with the central Canadian barren ground caribou herds, the Arctic Islands herds or the Quebec/Labrador herds...all of which are tanking).
    Fortunately for the woodland caribou in big chunks of northern Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec, there are lots of forested areas where muskeg limits access and the timber itself is of such poor quality and size that it is not worth harvesting. Those areas have next to no roads and limited access...unlike BC.

    Truthfully, there are a number of the so called mountain/woodland caribou herds in BC that are just not likely to survive. You can shoot the shit out of the wolves all you want but you cannot magically get rid of the hundreds of thousands of km's of resource extraction roads, cut lines and pipeline right-of-ways. We are/were blessed as a province with vast forests, outstanding mineral reserves for both hard rock and placer mining and oil and gas. But all of that resource extraction comes at a heavy price for some wildlife due to the access it creates and changes to the environment that result. Caribou do not do well around humans and our activity. You also can't magically replace the vast areas of old growth forest that have been levelled and were the key wintering areas for these caribou. To compound the problem many of those old growth forests were high elevation forests where the trees take a hundred to two hundred years to grow and much of the current silviculture practices do not work well in those areas.

    There is no easy fix to the caribou problem. One thing I do know is that lowering the moose population to control wolves and save the caribou is not going to work. It is being picked as a possible bandaid solution because it is cheap...let the hunters do it. Culling wolves by helicopter is expensive, the last figures I have seen seem to indicate a cost of about $4,300 per wolf but can clime to as high as $10,000 per wolf in some instances. Trapping them is problematic because there just aren't that many trappers out there any more that are really good at it and the same forces that want to protect the wolves killed off a viable trapping industry. Fur prices suck and no one is going to spend more money to trap a wolf than they can get back for selling the hide, even if you are just doing it for recreational purposes. Going in the hole monetarily gets old pretty quick. So a "bounty" is needed if you really want to get trappers out there and reducing the wolf population, but there is no way the government is going to talk about a "bounty" and suffer the onslaught of the global anti movement. No better to just let the "licensed" hunters take it on the chin reducing the moose population so it looks like they are doing something.
    These 2 posts and 2chodi's pdf pretty much "sum it up"!!
    Good stuff guys.

    And for me, nothing more needs to be said.
    These guys have just said all there needs to be said, imo.

  2. #132
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    Re: moose cull to save caribou?? wtf

    It is ******ed... The biologists Ive talked to thought it was ******ed as well.

    what Retiredguy and bearvalley are saying is the same thing that I have heard from retired game management guys. They say the only way to fix the issue is the old way.

    Really we need proper funding to evaluate numbers (All license fees to go to management for a start) and to not be afraid of the backlash to really reduce predator numbers effectively like in the past
    Last edited by Rotorwash; 06-24-2020 at 10:34 PM.

  3. #133
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    Re: moose cull to save caribou?? wtf

    Bad Wildlife Management - HBC 2013
    Includes a discussion on BCWF silence during the initial 2010 moose cull.
    Prophetic....

    http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showth...se+wolves+cull

    Quote Originally Posted by GoatGuy View Post
    There will be an announcement in the next couple weeks on moose. The wheels turn slowly. Unfortunately we'll study them to find out they are being eaten by wolves. The predator management issue will be the end result and if hunters talk to themselves instead of their MLAs we will end up with moose in areas going the same way the mountain caribou have.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatGuy View Post
    Suggest you get involved if you are passionate. Need people who are willing to contribute.

  4. #134
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    Re: moose cull to save caribou?? wtf

    Anyone else remember when the NDP in opposition (2012) gave the government shit for declining moose populations and the negative effect this has on First Nations, Small business (outfitters) and resident hunters?

  5. #135
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    Re: moose cull to save caribou?? wtf

    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Buffalo View Post
    Anyone else remember when the NDP in opposition (2012) gave the government shit for declining moose populations and the negative effect this has on First Nations, Small business (outfitters) and resident hunters?
    Sure do, but how soon they forget doing the right thing when it comes to a paycheck.
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  6. #136
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    Arrow Re: moose cull to save caribou?? wtf

    Village of Burns Lake council opposed to the cow moose and calf harvest


    One of the major arguments from the supporters of banning the cow moose hunt is that the moose population is just now starting to recover but they believe it is still a long ways away from fully recovering. Rensby adds to this saying that their basic argument would be, “if moose and wolves are so intertwined that killing moose would save caribou from wolves, why is it that moose numbers have been going down all across the province along with caribou, while wolves continue to climb?” Rensby, like other supporters of his cause, want the province to focus just on predator management instead of opting for alternative prey management.

    https://www.burnslakelakesdistrictne...-calf-harvest/
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVNNhzkJ-UU&feature=related

    Egotistical, Self Centered, Son of a Bitch Killer that Doesn't Play Well With Others.

    Guess he got to Know me

  7. #137
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    Re: moose cull to save caribou?? wtf

    BC wildlife management have to look at the way Alberta wildlife management is run as for there LEH ,, BC management will get some good input from the Alberta management
    Targeting moose to save the caribou is not the way to manage any wildlife,,what a crock..
    Hunting Elk Is All About Finding Them ,If You Can't Find Them Keep Trying ..

  8. #138
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    Re: moose cull to save caribou?? wtf

    Best Analogy I have is:

    You have a rock in your shoe, and it's ripping up you toe.
    Technically, yes, you could remove the toe, and eliminate the current pain.
    That being said, with the toe gone, the rock now has room to move around, and probably cause problems for the next toe.
    I suppose you could remove that toe as well, so on and so forth.

    The rock being the wolf and you can guess who the toe is.

    Isn't it just easier to remove the stone?????
    And, you get to keep your toes.

  9. #139
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    Re: moose cull to save caribou?? wtf

    There was an old lady that swallowed a fly....


    The whole concept of moose/wolf density dependence THEORY is that the system is simple.
    Moose and wolves.
    Once other actors are introduced, the potential for chaos increases.

    What I like most of the backlash to the moose cull, is the public awareness and objection to endless ecosystem manipulation experimentation.
    Every honest biologist knows that wolf reductions at their simplest denominator only require one lever to be pulled.
    Cull wolves.
    The best part of just culling wolves, we know that we can easily NOT cause an undesired extirpation of the species.
    They will rebound back if we let them.

    If only biologists and politicians would adhere to the KISS principal.
    Even if it makes it hard for them to find a job/cause.

  10. #140
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    Re: moose cull to save caribou?? wtf

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    Best Analogy I have is:

    You have a rock in your shoe, and it's ripping up you toe.
    Technically, yes, you could remove the toe, and eliminate the current pain.
    That being said, with the toe gone, the rock now has room to move around, and probably cause problems for the next toe.
    I suppose you could remove that toe as well, so on and so forth.

    The rock being the wolf and you can guess who the toe is.

    Isn't it just easier to remove the stone?????
    And, you get to keep your toes.
    ill try one....every area has a carrying capacity for game ...lets call it a deck of cards. The ecosystem needs to be in balance so each population in the food web has their share of cards... when some animals get overpopulated-gain cards, others lose cards. killing wolves returns the cards to the caribou to regain a balanced food web. the idea of killing moose in this scenario is like ripping up cards instead of redistributing them....we end up playing with half a deck!!!

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