moose cull to save caribou?? wtf

[labguy]

Please show me where I can read more about the BC Libs moose cull policy when they were in power because I would like to educate myself and learn more about it. I've searched online and can't seem to find anything about a BC Liberal government moose cull.

This is not hard to find. The cull happened north of Revelstoke around Mica dam during the Liberals reign approximately 10 years ago. There is information buried on the second page and beyond when you google “moose cull”.

The cull failed partly because there was no wolf control that paralleled the moose cull. When the moose disappeared (there were gut piles every few hundred yards along the road to mica and up the gold river during the LE seasons) the wolves went after the goats on winter range and the few mule deer that were living in the area. The caribou that were supposed to benefit from the moose cull suffered predation as well.

If you are truly interested in that history it just takes a bit of effort. There has also been some lengthy discussion here on HBC on the subject in the past

[Walking Buffalo]

Thank you for the history! Context is important, as I was not even hunting when this was all transpiring, so I am currently trying to learn about the various aspects.

From what I understood, culling wolves alone was not sufficient. I thought that it was only a combination of culling wolves, reducing moose, and maternal penning that resulted in the best results (increase of 4% per year of caribou). That being said, I have not done enough fact checking yet to determine the accuracy of the statement I have been told. The topic is very interesting though and I understand why people are concerned about the notion of killing the female and child of any game species, especially when said species is in large decline province wide.

Recall in the now vaporized thread that I suggested you do some more learnin' before decided your opinion on the matter?

I told you this was ALL political... back then hunters were expressing to the current governments that this was stupid, but no one would listen.
CBC sure wouldn't write about the hunters' concerns back then....

I suggest you lay off the claims that hunters are picking on the NDP.
We have made the same assertions to ALL political parties.


Yes, you will have a VERY hard time using google and reading "journalist" articles to learn the history of culling wolves.

This has been a covert operation from the beginning.

I was the first person in Alberta, perhaps in BC too, to publicly reveal that these governments were killing moose to starve wolves to save caribou.
I was met with dumbfounded skepticism.
When I produced unpublished documents that connected the dots, people began to believe what I was saying.

Back in the early 2000's , the Caribou commission suggested culling wolves to save caribou.
Politicians said no, give us another option.
Bio's said, well, here is an unproven theory, we can try killing moose.
Politicians, yah, we'll use the hunters without their knowledge to kill moose.

So, moose tags were increased.... hunters did not know why, believing that the moose population was still be managed for stability.


Now we have several well researched studies that show culling moose does not help caribou.
Hunters are aware that the government will indeed prioritize politics over wildlife health and abuse the relationship with hunters, lie and use them..
This time, hunters are ready and willing to stand our ground.

[Redthies]

The Liberals were desperate to avoid International public outcry if they killed wolves.

Now, the BC NDP, despite now knowing that this concept does not work, wants to do it again anyways....

So here is the real problem... Our governments (both federal and provincial) are making decisions based on what the rest of the world thinks. Not on what is needed or even realistic for BC and Canada. There are far too many people that will “cry wolf” over most things that NEED to be done.

To move forward with the thought that taking a major food source for wolves out of the area, will DECREASE predation on the remaining species in the area is monumentally stupid. It doesn’t matter which party is in power when dumb is being lead by dumber.

[AllDay]

Walking Buffalo, thank you for the information you are taking the time to provide. I am actively looking into this issue. Part of actively looking into this issue for me also means conversing with hunters that have more experience than I do on this matter, so that I can gain greater insight. I fail to recognize why this is such an issue, as the majority of the facts I have mentioned are backed up by objective science. I will continue to converse on this matter, as well as conduct independent research, as that is how I learn best.

I also definitely understand why the idea of removing a food source may not seem like a bright option, as the wolves may move on to the next available food source: the caribou. Although the science on a combination approach of reducing wolves and reducing moose is not conclusive, the question is whether or not this experiment is worth the risk to save the caribou. I don't know the answer to that question.

Politics also determines that the easiest course of action is to reduce the moose because then you don't have to actually affect the forest industry or any of the other industries that are utilizing our resources. This is a problem created by politicians and a lack of a strong wildlife department. We should be asking for more independent management of our wildlife as the politicians clearly don't have the wildlife as their top priority.

I did not mean to convey that we shouldn't pick on the NDP. My thoughts are we should hold all politicians more accountable for their horrible wildlife management practices, including both the NDP and the Liberals.

[wideopenthrottle]

This is what needs to be thrown into the anti's face. When you talk about "lowering predator numbers" by killing their prey you are talking about starving them to death. This is a gutless and cruel way to control a population of any animal. If we had too many gophers in the field would we try to kill all the plants in the area to control them!!! Yet, instead of killing some wolves to get the ecosystem back to balance with good numbers, they expect to get hunters to kill large numbers of the prey animal to starve out the predator. So instead of keeping good numbers of prey animals and predators by quickly and humanely culling a few preds we are expected to buy into the idea of lowering multiple animal numbers.

The anti's also must be reminded that farmland can only exist because animal habitat was destroyed and the animals and wildlife that was there is now DEAD!!!

[Walking Buffalo]

Walking Buffalo, thank you for the information you are taking the time to provide. I am actively looking into this issue. Part of actively looking into this issue for me also means conversing with hunters that have more experience than I do on this matter, so that I can gain greater insight. I fail to recognize why this is such an issue, as the majority of the facts I have mentioned are backed up by objective science. I will continue to converse on this matter, as well as conduct independent research, as that is how I learn best.

I also definitely understand why the idea of removing a food source may not seem like a bright option, as the wolves may move on to the next available food source: the caribou. Although the science on a combination approach of reducing wolves and reducing moose is not conclusive, the question is whether or not this experiment is worth the risk to save the caribou. I don't know the answer to that question.

Politics also determines that the easiest course of action is to reduce the moose because then you don't have to actually affect the forest industry or any of the other industries that are utilizing our resources. This is a problem created by politicians and a lack of a strong wildlife department. We should be asking for more independent management of our wildlife as the politicians clearly don't have the wildlife as their top priority.

I did not mean to convey that we shouldn't pick on the NDP. My thoughts are we should hold all politicians more accountable for their horrible wildlife management practices, including both the NDP and the Liberals.

You say, "

the majority of the facts I have mentioned are backed up by objective science

"
That's not true.
The research facts have shown that culling moose with or without wolf culling is not contributing to increased caribou survival.

You even go on to say "

the science on a combination approach of reducing wolves and reducing moose is not conclusive

"....
So, now you say your facts are not conclusive....
I say the facts are conclusive, culling moose does not work.
Why keep hammering your thumb to see if maybe the next time it will be a good idea?

I provided the scientific facts showing that culling moose does not work.
You are just providing a weakening rhetorical rebuttal apparently in an effort to maintain part of your initial opinion.

Time to let it go.

The caribou issue is MUCH more complicated than just potential wolf/moose parasitic symbiosis.
Governments know what they need to do if the objective is to protect these herds.
The NDP plan is nothing more than a old stinkin' herring they pulled out from the gut bin.

[REMINGTON JIM]

You have to be a MORON if you Believe THIS Idea of there's is gonna Work ! jmo RJ

[Bugle M In]

You have to be a MORON if you Believe THIS Idea of there's is gonna Work ! jmo RJ

Yup, looks nice on paper in "concept".
Reality doesn't always work that way however, even if science is used.
Think they call it the "chaos factor"??????

This is all about how a government looks in the publics eyes and based on retaining votes.
It isn't about doing the right thing.

[AllDay]

Well, here is a peer reviewed article that studied the effect of reducing wolves alone vs reducing moose and wolves. The study shows that reducing wolves alone was not sufficient in increasing caribou survival rate,, but reducing moose and wolves did allow for an increase in caribou survival rate and a decrease in wolf density in caribou habitat. While I do respect and appreciate the information and experience you provide, I also strongly believe in objective science as a tool to manage wildlife.

https://cmu.abmi.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Serrouya-et-al-2017-Experimental-moose-reduction-lowers-wolf-density-and-stops-decline-of-endangered-caribou.pdf

[Redthies]

Well, here is a peer reviewed article that studied the effect of reducing wolves alone vs reducing moose and wolves. The study shows that reducing wolves alone was not sufficient in increasing caribou survival rate,, but reducing moose and wolves did allow for an increase in caribou survival rate and a decrease in wolf density in caribou habitat. While I do respect and appreciate the information and experience you provide, I also strongly believe in objective science as a tool to manage wildlife.

https://cmu.abmi.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Serrouya-et-al-2017-Experimental-moose-reduction-lowers-wolf-density-and-stops-decline-of-endangered-caribou.pdf

Ok. So do an LEH on cow/calf and a bounty on wolves. Doing one without the other is ridiculous.