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Thread: Lifetime BCWF Members

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    North Van
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    Re: Lifetime BCWF Members

    Quote Originally Posted by Shermanator View Post
    ...as you can see its all fallen on deaf ears.

    I gave you my personal contact number, told you I'd address this and traded a few explanatory emails with you before spending the weekend at a BCWF BoD meeting instead of chasing blacktails, right?

    Anyway, I have an answer for you. I'll send it direct to your email when I get a chance.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
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    108

    Re: Lifetime BCWF Members

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Chipman View Post
    I gave you my personal contact number, told you I'd address this and traded a few explanatory emails with you before spending the weekend at a BCWF BoD meeting instead of chasing blacktails, right?

    Anyway, I have an answer for you. I'll send it direct to your email when I get a chance.
    I was merely responding to the other posts and my previous encounters with BCWF, not our current correspondence which I also let others know we were having. I believe its called transparency, that's all....

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    816

    Re: Lifetime BCWF Members

    I was considering a LIFETIME MEMBERSHIP with the BCWF, I'm thinking not really now, as my membership gets paid by the club's I'm in. It's too bad things like this double dipping so to speak don't get traction and cease.

    I'm putting my same money's to the WSSBC instead. Which is a good thing as I see more being done for Wildlife and Hunters by them then the BCWF imo
    WSSBC
    BCWF
    CCFR
    BHA

  4. #54
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    Oct 2010
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    North Van
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    Re: Lifetime BCWF Members

    Quote Originally Posted by Imdone View Post
    I was considering a LIFETIME MEMBERSHIP with the BCWF, I'm thinking not really now, as my membership gets paid by the club's I'm in. It's too bad things like this double dipping so to speak don't get traction and cease.

    I'm putting my same money's to the WSSBC instead. Which is a good thing as I see more being done for Wildlife and Hunters by them then the BCWF imo
    A lifetime membership in WSS is a good investment. I bought one from them as well.

    As for double dipping let me clarify something that really should be pretty obvious.

    If you buy a lifetime membership from BCWF it is a one time purchase of a product, and the transaction is between you, the individual, and BCWF, the volunteer led and member driven organization.

    If you buy a membership from a club you're buying a different product from a different group. Clubs are members of the BCWF but they are standalone organizations with their own financial goals and financial management methods. I think we all know this. What clubs charge and what clubs deliver for those charges are the business of clubs, and properly so.

    There is nothing to stop BCWF member clubs from not charging lifetime BCWF members that portion of the club's fees that are remitted to the BCWF. Any club can do that. The BCWF has absolutely no problem with that and has demonstrated that in the past. Any lifetime member of the BCWF that pays additional fees through their club can ask their club to not charge them those fees.

    There are three reasons that I can think of why a club would not do that.

    First, it is worthwhile for a club to have more paid up BCWF members because it can translate into more votes for the club at the AGM. That's a narrow application and only makes sense when the club is on the border between the number of votes the club can exercise. A club with 100 members gets one vote. A club with 101-200 members gets two votes. A club with 201-500 members gets three votes. A club with 501 or more members gets an additional vote for every 500 members extra. As I said - narrow application but it *may* motivate your club to make a lifetime member pay twice.

    An online version of the constitution is found here: https://bcwf.bc.ca/wp-content/upload...ution-2019.pdf

    The section you want is 7.2

    Second, your club treasurer may not want the hassle of dealing with more work. That's the business of the club, the club treasurer and club members, not the larger BCWF.

    Third, its entirely possible that a club charges a lifetime member twice simply because they aren't aware and don't particularly care that the lifetime member is paying two sets of BCWF fees and the lifetime member has not asked the club to address the issue. After all, it's very common for BCWF club members to buy a lifetime membership as a way to donate and demonstrate commitment, fully aware that they're buying two different types of memberships from two different vendors. It is also common for BCWF members to belong to multiple clubs, and most of these members don't care about the extra fees collected by the club and remitted to the BCWF.

    The BCWF resolutions committee and the BCWF Board did submit a resolution to allow clubs to *not* collect or remit the BCWF portion of the club's fees (the fees that the club, through it's members, decides to charge it's members) *and* keep the added voting privilege that comes at the 101, 201, 501 member level. That is to say, the BCWF recognized the problem and tried to fix it.

    That resolution was voted down by the members. Perhaps your club exercised it's vote to defeat the resolution.

    I have discussed this with BCWF staff who advised that it is very difficult and time consuming for them to to review membership lists from every club, compare them with lifetime members and adjust billing between clubs and the BCWF. Many on this thread have expressed a belief that the task is a simple one. The people who do that task assure me that it is not. You can make of that what you will.

    I am endeavouring to create solution that will allow the BCWF to easily refund, upon the member's request, all or part of a lifetime membership to a lifetime member who is unhappy about being charged once by BCWF and a second time by their club for what the dissatisfied member feels are the same services.

    In short, this isn't about the money. It's about the difficulty of doing the job. Nobody forces your club to charge you twice. You can ask them to stop. BCWF has tried, and is continuing to try, to fix the problem. Fixing it is taking up a lot of bandwidth, but what are you going to do when an angry and dissatisfied member complains? You have to try to fix it even when you'd rather be trying to address issues you personally find more important.

    I'll close by saying that arguing that the fact that a member knowingly purchasing two different products from two different vendors amounts to a malicious attempt by BCWF to screw and rip off it's members through double dipping strikes me as unfair.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
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    LmL
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    4

    Re: Lifetime BCWF Members

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Chipman View Post
    A lifetime membership in WSS is a good investment. I bought one from them as well.

    As for double dipping let me clarify something that really should be pretty obvious.

    If you buy a lifetime membership from BCWF it is a one time purchase of a product, and the transaction is between you, the individual, and BCWF, the volunteer led and member driven organization.

    If you buy a membership from a club you're buying a different product from a different group. Clubs are members of the BCWF but they are standalone organizations with their own financial goals and financial management methods. I think we all know this. What clubs charge and what clubs deliver for those charges are the business of clubs, and properly so.

    There is nothing to stop BCWF member clubs from not charging lifetime BCWF members that portion of the club's fees that are remitted to the BCWF. Any club can do that. The BCWF has absolutely no problem with that and has demonstrated that in the past. Any lifetime member of the BCWF that pays additional fees through their club can ask their club to not charge them those fees.

    There are three reasons that I can think of why a club would not do that.

    First, it is worthwhile for a club to have more paid up BCWF members because it can translate into more votes for the club at the AGM. That's a narrow application and only makes sense when the club is on the border between the number of votes the club can exercise. A club with 100 members gets one vote. A club with 101-200 members gets two votes. A club with 201-500 members gets three votes. A club with 501 or more members gets an additional vote for every 500 members extra. As I said - narrow application but it *may* motivate your club to make a lifetime member pay twice.

    An online version of the constitution is found here: https://bcwf.bc.ca/wp-content/upload...ution-2019.pdf

    The section you want is 7.2

    Second, your club treasurer may not want the hassle of dealing with more work. That's the business of the club, the club treasurer and club members, not the larger BCWF.

    Third, its entirely possible that a club charges a lifetime member twice simply because they aren't aware and don't particularly care that the lifetime member is paying two sets of BCWF fees and the lifetime member has not asked the club to address the issue. After all, it's very common for BCWF club members to buy a lifetime membership as a way to donate and demonstrate commitment, fully aware that they're buying two different types of memberships from two different vendors. It is also common for BCWF members to belong to multiple clubs, and most of these members don't care about the extra fees collected by the club and remitted to the BCWF.

    The BCWF resolutions committee and the BCWF Board did submit a resolution to allow clubs to *not* collect or remit the BCWF portion of the club's fees (the fees that the club, through it's members, decides to charge it's members) *and* keep the added voting privilege that comes at the 101, 201, 501 member level. That is to say, the BCWF recognized the problem and tried to fix it.

    That resolution was voted down by the members. Perhaps your club exercised it's vote to defeat the resolution.

    I have discussed this with BCWF staff who advised that it is very difficult and time consuming for them to to review membership lists from every club, compare them with lifetime members and adjust billing between clubs and the BCWF. Many on this thread have expressed a belief that the task is a simple one. The people who do that task assure me that it is not. You can make of that what you will.

    I am endeavouring to create solution that will allow the BCWF to easily refund, upon the member's request, all or part of a lifetime membership to a lifetime member who is unhappy about being charged once by BCWF and a second time by their club for what the dissatisfied member feels are the same services.

    In short, this isn't about the money. It's about the difficulty of doing the job. Nobody forces your club to charge you twice. You can ask them to stop. BCWF has tried, and is continuing to try, to fix the problem. Fixing it is taking up a lot of bandwidth, but what are you going to do when an angry and dissatisfied member complains? You have to try to fix it even when you'd rather be trying to address issues you personally find more important.

    I'll close by saying that arguing that the fact that a member knowingly purchasing two different products from two different vendors amounts to a malicious attempt by BCWF to screw and rip off it's members through double dipping strikes me as unfair.
    Great post Rob , I was struggling to justify the double dipping interpretation ...

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    816

    Re: Lifetime BCWF Members

    Thanks for clarifying Rob.

    This has made the issue much clearer and should have been said long ago.

    To be honest, the club's I've been in have always stated no it's not possible. And I admit I should have dug deeper and pushed them more on the subject.

    Good to hear your feedback.
    WSSBC
    BCWF
    CCFR
    BHA

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    108

    Re: Lifetime BCWF Members

    Thanks for the reply Rob, although in your private emails to me you didn't want me posting on a public forum things that could "tarnish the image of the BCWF". I was expecting that email you said you were going to send me however this is fine, I don't mind being on the forum to post my views. I'll try to keep it short but we know where that goes.

    I appreciate you trying to explain what "might" or "may" be happening with respect to this issue I have raised. Your emails told me that "The reason you're paying twice or three times is because the solution you're looking for is, according to staff, too difficult to achieve." OK, so at least he BCWF has recognized that at least one person is being "overcharged" , your words, not mine. Fix it. We can go around in circles trying to cast blame on someone else which it appears is happening again. This is not me tarnishing the good BCWF name, it appears to be someone or something else, not the Shermanator. All I'm trying to do is bring an issue forward to current BCWF members and to those that may want to become members that there is a problem in the system.

    It appears to me that BCWF would put the blame on the local Clubs that are doing the "over charging", stating that they did not have to charge the BCWF portion of the dues by the Club. Yet, at least one other person on this forum has been told by the Club that he had to pay. I have questioned and emailed my Club several times and they too stated that if they want to be a member of the Club affiliated with BCWF then that person joining the local Club must also pay the extra fee! I have even gone so far as to have my Club attach a letter to the portion of my membership that goes to BCWF, with a photocopy of my Lifetime Membership card and stating that I should not have to pay the extra fee! The Club has heard nothing back, and nor have I. Even the Club President said it is totally wrong that I'm being double charged. I can only assume that it was put in the same shredder as was all my other correspondence.

    Your comments to me "your priority about getting double billed and not liking it is pretty low on my personal priority list." and "You have to try to fix it even when you'd rather be trying to address issues you personally find more important." are certainly not reflective of someone who really wants to get to the bottom of this problem. As I've stated to you I don't know how many times I said, yes, you are working on issues you deem much more important. I have also thanked you and told you I appreciated all the work you and the BCWF do but, it does not let BCWF off the hook or allow you the pleasure of deeming my complaint any less important than other issues you work on. Your term "this is a very minor issue" is perceived as a total lack of interest on BCWF part, just as you don't appreciate the term "ripped off", I never did use the word screwed though.

    Here's a letter you can send to all the BCWF affiliated Clubs:

    It has been brought to our attention that Lifetime BCWF Members have been paying local Club dues as well as BCWF dues, this is to stop immediately. It will be up to the individual Member whether they want to pay BCWF dues twice. Also, with respect to Direct BCWF Members, should they want to join other Clubs, they also will not be required to pay the BCWF dues but only the dues that are applicable to join that Club. We apologize for any inconvenience or frustration this may have caused in the past and look forward to your continued support.
    Your sincerely, BCWF

    I tried to keep it short, hopefully something will be resolved out of all of this...............Sherm

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    North Van
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    1,888

    Re: Lifetime BCWF Members

    The reply was to Imdone, Sherm, not to you. Your email is coming.

    A few points for clarification.

    -You and I disagree on what has occurred. You think you've been over-charged, are paying extra and that this is a problem. I disagree. I think that you knowingly bought two different products from two different organizations on completely different terms and are now unhappy with your choice. Further, you and I clearly disagree on the nature of the problem.

    -Despite my opinion on your actions I'm devoting time and energy in an attempt to satisfy you, and I think the reason I'm doing that is pretty obvious.

    -Your suggestion of the letter that BCWF could send to clubs speaks to this disagreement. First, suggesting that this issue has been brought to our attention sounds like a courteous opening line, but it plays fast and loose with truth and history. The problem of clubs collecting BCWF membership fees from life members is not new, has been on the radar a long time and was the subject of an official Board generated resolution that the membership defeated. Second, what you're suggesting requires a change in the constitution (not easy, and, as we know, the membership has not been supportive of that in the past) and it also requires BCWF to attempt to exercise power that it neither has nor should have (clubs are independent and make their own decisions about how they manage their affairs).

    BCWF is member driven. Members indicate their main concerns and BCWF volunteer leadership tries to address them. Membership has indicated on more than one occasion that your personal concern is not widely held, and that they would like BCWF volunteer leadership to focus on other issues. Given that your issue came up at Board level and was discussed at length, the fact that this is not the first time it's been discussed and the fact that I am spending time and energy on it, I think it's unfair to use the descriptor "total" in the phrase "total lack of interest on BCWF part". There is clearly interest on the part of BCWF volunteer leadership to address your complaint, but there is a divide between the BCWF volunteer leadership and the membership. The *BCWF membership* looked at this issue at an AGM and made it as clear as possible that the *BCWF membership* does not consider it an important issue. BCWF volunteer leadership takes our direction from the membership, and prioritizes all problems on that basis.

    I think it might be time for you to recognize that while you feel you have a valid complaint with what you term "the BCWF hierarchy" you might also consider not only publicly castigating your club and fellow BCWF members, but enlisting them in a solution. I suspect that your club can fix this more easily than the BCWF can (it likely requires a constitutional change for the club) and that the rank and file BCWF membership could also support you (again, that may require a constitutional change, or, as I hope, a creative workaround that addresses the accounting challenge that staff highlight).
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey
    "Grown men do not need leaders" - also Ed Abbey

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    sorrento
    Posts
    377

    Re: Lifetime BCWF Members

    This is going much like the covid thread. Some people dont like the truth no matter how many times and ways it is ex plained. At my club we allow any one that proves BCWF membership to buy an associate membership. I know some will say its the principle of it. But to me its a flat of beer once a year.
    Thanks Rob for doing a thankless job.

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    108

    Re: Lifetime BCWF Members

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie O View Post
    This is going much like the covid thread. Some people dont like the truth no matter how many times and ways it is ex plained. At my club we allow any one that proves BCWF membership to buy an associate membership. I know some will say its the principle of it. But to me its a flat of beer once a year.
    Thanks Rob for doing a thankless job.
    Your absolutely right, some people or Clubs won't admit to the truth. There's seems to be a discrepancy between the truth in what my Club is saying and what BCWF is saying, so I'm not sure how you can pick one over the other as being right, I haven't! It's only a flat of beer a year? Ya, so much for some people's principles, again. Your entitled to your opinions and choices as am I, and I choose to stand up for my principles and what is right, and stopping the "over charging " is right. And, they can close this thread if they choose, or you don't have to read it. There are other avenues to let people know what is going on and what I feel is wrong....

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