Southern Interior Mule Deer Project Update

[Ourea]

The thread is on the interior mule deer project, not regUlation.

The regulation debate has been drum to death for yrs on this site.

Near 100% pregnancy rate in the sample areas.
Deer numbers continue to decline.

The focus is on mortality and what those drivers are.
4 point seasons, or regulation for that matter, did not impact doe survival.
Again, the core issue of this project is to determine what is causing such high mortality rates on the DOE population.

Are fawns succumbing to excessive predation?
Are does succumbing to excessive predation?
If so.....where, when, how.
Is it habitat related where fawns are too weak to survive?
Rd mortality?
Out of season harvest?

When does are dying right now, this week, next week, next month, the question is how and where.
All the hunting regulation changes in the world won’t have a factor on this dynamic.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Yes Ourea.
Changing regulations doesn’t work.

In the last 3 decades mule deer populations have declined not just in B.C. but across much of the western states.
The states have lots of money to throw at the issue but they still haven’t been able to stop the long term trend.
Death by a thousand cuts? Who knows what it will take to reverse the trend.

SSS

[Pauly]

Yes, there are some people who like to dog others with quick smart ass responses.
(only have o go to a few threads here to see who that is, click on there name, check there posts and it becomes real obvious, real quick)

Since you and I hunt fairly close together, I can give you a few examples of the 4pt issue.
There were several years where I saw 2 really large 3pt MD, and would have had no issue shooting them, but it was 4pt season.
And yes, we have a long Any buck season, yet these 2 bucks always survived that time frame.
Goes to show that mature bucks stay really hidden and only get stupid during the rut when Does get into heat.
Only show up at the peak of the rut and cant a damn thing about it.
And they are chasing off some decent 4 pts (watched it several times, too far to shoot)
Now, if the breed the Does, then there is a chance they are passing on that 3pt gene.
Doesn't mean a male offspring will be 3pt, but the gene is still in there.

Also, we now have a 1 MD limit
This will take some time to show the benefits too, so we have to wait and see.
But when you have folks having to focus on 4pts (just like 6pt elk), it has the potential to have a majority of 4pts to not get older.
If it had been any buck, I would have tagged out on the 3pt, rather then the 4pt the next day.

That's how I look at it and why a point restriction just doesn't work the way people think it will.

I’m sure you noticed the amount of bears in that country of ours.. I’ll be their in the spring looking to fill two tags. With those kinds of bear numbers in the area you can’t tell me their not hard on fawn numbers. I may not know much of anything but I do know they are proficient fawn killers. I don’t know what the bears like about it but they are top to bottom.

[skibum]

That's how I look at it and why a point restriction just doesn't work the way people think it will.

Ya, I saw a couple huge three points this season. Only four point I found was mulie skull, antlers no bigger than my hand, but four point.

[325]

Yes Ourea.
Changing regulations doesn’t work.

In the last 3 decades mule deer populations have declined not just in B.C. but across much of the western states.
The states have lots of money to throw at the issue but they still haven’t been able to stop the long term trend.
Death by a thousand cuts? Who knows what it will take to reverse the trend.

SSS

True, but unlike much of BC, it's still possible to see hundreds of mule deer in a day in many states

[wideopenthrottle]

Regarding genetics, there's an interesting Meat Eater podcast out there titled Landscape of Fear. It's got a couple of guys with PhD's from the Muley Fanatic Foundation. They have research that suggests nutrition for the mother while carrying her offspring can play a larger role in predicting the size of a buck than what we call "genetics". They make an interesting and compelling argument. I'm not doing them any justice passing on the Coles Notes version but whether you like the podcast or not it passed on some very interesting information.

yes, as you reference, it makes sense that no matter how good the genetics, poor nutrition and other major stresses on the mother will have a huge impact on the offspring that more than offsets the good genetics perhaps even detrimentally affects it...it all relates back to the limiting factor(s)...like a bottleneck is to an assembly line so can be strong environmental factors to reproduction rates and overall herd health...this is also true of humans where stresses that affect someone right down to the level of altering DNA will create a genetic mutation in the offspring as well so it kinda works both ways...the hormones associated with stress in a pregnant mother has huge effects on the development of the offspring

[Walking Buffalo]

The issue that is always brought is people see hybrids running around and I believe Geist says they wouldn't make it to adulthood. That doesn't mean a whitetail buck breeds a mulie doe and gets her pregnant and she aborts half way through winter or gives birth to a still born or a live fawn that is so F-upped that it never lives more then a day. That would indeed start dropping the mulie populations as the mulie does are all bred but never produce a functioning fawn.

BHB

Geist stated that Whitetail and Mule deer occupying the same area will lead to reduced Mule deer populations through post-partum mortality and lost recruitment.
It is almost always a WT buck breeding a MD doe. Almost never the other way.
Hybrid male fawns are typically sterile, females are typically fertile with an ability to successfully mate with either species.
Hybrid deer typically exhibit predator escape behavior that is between the running of a WT and the stotting of the MD.
This trait leaves them especially vulnerable to predators.

The end result is that nearly 100% of mating between WT and MD results in a recruitment loss from the MD population.

As WTs also exhibit more aggressive territorial behavior and a greater reproductive ability (mostly attributed to the % of yearling females that will conceive on their first rut, compared to MD young), the "balance" is quickly pushed in favour of WT deer dominating the landscape.

I've had an opportunity to observe a 400 square mile area for forty years, an area that see very limited hunting.
Forty years ago MD and WT deer were about even on population and dispersal over the landscape.
Now there are only a handful of MD herds in very specific locations, 1000's of WTs and maybe a hundred Mulies.
These last MD live in the few very steep river banks areas. I haven't seen a MD in a field for 15 years....

Everything I have read in the past was regarding surviving hybrids. If Geist theory is like bighornbob mentioned and they are not making it to term that could throw a warp in things. If this theory is correct it would be a big game changer.

Has there been a study to prove this as fact or is it still a theory?

If this is correct it would also throw the opinions that because all does are pregnant in the present study means there is enough mule deer bucks

The issue with wildlife management it seems there is a ton of conflicting theories from both bios and hunters a like. Starting to think MD are just weak inferior deer because it seems everything impacts there numbers

There are studies (wild and captive animals) that support Geist's suspicions.

[SemperAurum]

I have shot 2 hybrid bucks and both were at least 2 years old.

[Walking Buffalo]

I have shot 2 hybrid bucks and both were at least 2 years old.

Were they fertile?

[SemperAurum]

I do not know. They were both dead. I did not perform an autopsy on the testicles and It would have been kinda wierd and fruitless to give a dead buck a handyJ