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Thread: Southern Interior Mule Deer Project Update

  1. #31
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    Re: Southern Interior Mule Deer Project Update

    Quote Originally Posted by pg83 View Post
    I never made a claim that the numbers were healthy in comparison to historical figures. I simply stated that the numbers from the study showed that the deer captured in the Cache Creek Study Area were doing pretty well. You still haven't provided any back up to your claim about decreasing numbers though. For the record I'm not disputing that claim, I simply like to have statistical data to back it up.
    Their is no statistical data and even if there were it would most likely be a wild guess.. I use to be a government employee so I should know let’s put it that way. Numbers in this specific area are waaay down plain and simple but yes the deer are doing well. I’m out their 365 so it doesn’t take a genius to see how things have changed as far as numbers go However this year with no snow the deer won’t migrate in said area at all at this point. Statistics are bull shit and everyone knows it ... he’ll the government spends millions on a moose survey to determine what’s killing moose.... lol it’s called logging. But they use a study to circumvent the possibility of blame . Politics are a bitch for our wildlife . Go walk through a 100 % fir forest find one pine tree hammered with pitch tubes call it an infestation and clear cut it. Been their done that buddy. That’s how it works

  2. #32
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    Re: Southern Interior Mule Deer Project Update

    Quote Originally Posted by pg83 View Post
    Not sure if they have done a recent inventory, but wildlife has not been a priority for any party in the province for a long time. It's not about making sense or not, it's about dollars.



    I'm not surprised there is a change in the sign you are seeing. The recent massive burn has changed the habitat throughout the region. Animals are going to use the landscape differently.
    #climatechange is also undoubtedly having an impact on many species and we have no real clue about any of that currently to the best of my knowledge.



    Direct quote from the link provided earlier in the thread by you: "As of spring 2019, our team had documented pregnancy rates of 93% and twinning rates of >69%. These metrics are both considered very good for mule deer."




    Agreed 100% I'm happy that the bio's do have that data to look at the very least. It is through such information that they can attempt to influence the decision makers above them to provide real change.



    Nothing to say to that besides the fact I wish we had more funding available for wildlife and the wild places they inhabit, period.
    To the breeding and twinning etc, all I can say is, I have concerns that many of the fawns don't make it after hunting season ends till next spring.
    The issue has never been "the breeding of Does" although many worry about either the any buck season or the group that wants 4pt shut down for time during the season.
    The fact the pregnancy rates are high in all the Does captured, should be enough proof that there are still enough bucks to get it done.
    So neither worrying about any buck or a closed 4pt to me is a useless conversation.

    What the age of the Does are is more of a concern, if memory serves me correct, it takes an older Doe to have twins, not 1 year old.
    And, are the fawns surviving??
    In the Boundary, doesn't sound like much is at all!

    Also, "unregulated hunting" seems to be on the list for the Cache Cr study, so does that mean poached or FN harvest.
    I have come across more then a few deer that were shot and left, and most of them Does to begin with (which leaves me perplexed??).
    So poaching or useless killing is happening up there and I suspect more then many know about.
    And the FN leaves a whole other factor to the great unknown.

    AS for fires changing the deer habits and movements.
    Those issues started long before the fire!!
    I have hunted may years up there, know others who have and have had the opportunity to even speak to the local FN Chief and another in a high position in the band, and we talked about the "Changes" in deer pattern and areas which were good for finding deer but now were crap even though the habitat hadn't changed.
    The biggest factor they felt as well as myself was all the logging, hands down, as it was the only issue happening.
    No Beetle kill or windfall from that, no wolves, and no change in hunting pressure back then when the issues began.
    Just miles and miles of landscape with no trees.
    Now that, just like you say about a fire "changing their patterns", will also cause a change in patterns, and it did!! (didn't need the fires help at that point).
    Last edited by Bugle M In; 12-10-2019 at 09:20 PM.

  3. #33
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    Re: Southern Interior Mule Deer Project Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    To the breeding and twinning etc, all I can say is, I have concerns that many of the fawns don't make it after hunting season ends till next spring.
    The issue has never been "the breeding of Does" although many worry about either the any buck season or the group that wants 4pt shut down for time during the season.
    The fact the pregnancy rates are high in all the Does captured, should be enough proof that there are still enough bucks to get it done.
    So neither worrying about any buck or a closed 4pt to me is a useless conversation.

    What the age of the Does are is more of a concern, if memory serves me correct, it takes an older Doe to have twins, not 1 year old.
    And, are the fawns surviving??
    In the Boundary, doesn't sound like much is at all!

    Also, "unregulated hunting" seems to be on the list for the Cache Cr study, so does that mean poached or FN harvest.
    I have come across more then a few deer that were shot and left, and most of them Does to begin with (which leaves me perplexed??).
    So poaching or useless killing is happening up there and I suspect more then many know about.
    And the FN leaves a whole other factor to the great unknown.

    AS for fires changing the deer habits and movements.
    Those issues started long before the fire!!
    I have hunted may years up there, know others who have and have had the opportunity to even speak to the local FN Chief and another in a high position in the band, and we talked about the "Changes" in deer pattern and areas which were good for finding deer but now were crap even though the habitat hadn't changed.
    The biggest factor they felt as well as myself was all the logging, hands down, as it was the only issue happening.
    No Beetle kill or windfall from that, no wolves, and no change in hunting pressure back then when the issues began.
    Just miles and miles of landscape with no trees.
    Now that, just like you say about a fire "changing their patterns", will also cause a change in patterns, and it did!! (didn't need the fires help at that point).
    You probably remember in the spring time going up Battle Creek road it’s wasn’t uncommon to count 100 mule deer or more in the sage no problem it was an incredible sight. Now if I see 50 I’m extatic. Back in the day all the hunting from natives and non natives alike made no impact then came the moon scape up top and each successive year we observed fewer and fewer deer on the winter range. Logging creates a whole host of problems that will take 30 years to self correct. Yes the deer are healthy yes they are reproducing but unfortunately for all wildlife habitat is key. No way around this it is an indisputable fact. I’m curious if we’ve bumped into one another over the years. Do you fish the lake?

  4. #34
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    Re: Southern Interior Mule Deer Project Update

    I hope these volunteers


    Know the difference between a" cat kill " verses a wolf kill, bear kill or coyotes. Shitty to see the cats getting all the blame,,
    I can tell ya, but you know I' ll be lying to you!!!!

  5. #35
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    Re: Southern Interior Mule Deer Project Update

    Quote Originally Posted by tracker View Post
    I hope these volunteers


    Know the difference between a" cat kill " verses a wolf kill, bear kill or coyotes. Shitty to see the cats getting all the blame,,
    Would be nice to have had a few cougar collared in the area as a study to add data to the MD study. The factor I mentioned earlier in the thread with wolves pushing cats of kills might be part of the issue. We all no wolves have increased over the years but have cougars?

    Either way definitely sounds like a predator issue is at play

  6. #36
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    Re: Southern Interior Mule Deer Project Update

    Quote Originally Posted by tracker View Post
    I hope these volunteers


    Know the difference between a" cat kill " verses a wolf kill, bear kill or coyotes. Shitty to see the cats getting all the blame,,
    Many people cant tell the difference between tracks let alone kills.

  7. #37
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    Re: Southern Interior Mule Deer Project Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild one View Post
    Would be nice to have had a few cougar collared in the area as a study to add data to the MD study. The factor I mentioned earlier in the thread with wolves pushing cats of kills might be part of the issue. We all no wolves have increased over the years but have cougars?

    Either way definitely sounds like a predator issue is at play
    Don't no about other areas but in many of the units in region 4 the cats don't get a break from the wolves following them and taking there kills.
    The doe whitetail season has also changed what the cats are seeking for a food source, that is why any study here is flawed.

  8. #38
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    Re: Southern Interior Mule Deer Project Update

    Quote Originally Posted by LBM View Post
    Don't no about other areas but in many of the units in region 4 the cats don't get a break from the wolves following them and taking there kills.
    The doe whitetail season has also changed what the cats are seeking for a food source, that is why any study here is flawed.
    I will keep an open mind on the study till I see data and the conclusion that is reached

    It would not surprise me if factors are missed because most studies do and often because someone has a theory/agenda before it started that they are trying to prove correct. Would be nice if that was not the case with this one

  9. #39
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    Re: Southern Interior Mule Deer Project Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild one View Post
    Would be nice to have had a few cougar collared in the area as a study to add data to the MD study. The factor I mentioned earlier in the thread with wolves pushing cats of kills might be part of the issue. We all no wolves have increased over the years but have cougars?

    Either way definitely sounds like a predator issue is at play
    Yes, not only the Cats but Wolves.
    I know it costs a ton of money and man power hours.
    But I never understood these studies, such as this, and want to get definitive answers to make strategic decisions in the future, without
    collaring the Preds in the Area.
    It would really clarify who is doing what, and where and when.
    With tracking collars and todays technology, it should be pretty easy to see who did what.

    Obviously Car killed or unreported or even reported kills need to take the long route.

    The only other Stupid in all this, is the FN and if they are trying to see the value of such studies and are willing to say what their members
    are harvesting.
    whats the point of flying over every few years and taking count if no one knows what is either creating a surge in MD #'s or creating their
    demise.

    I sure would like a discussion with those involved in the study to explain how they do determine who killed what originally.
    24 hrs after a deer dies, and your guess is as good as mine as to what killed it?

  10. #40
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    Re: Southern Interior Mule Deer Project Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    Yes, not only the Cats but Wolves.
    I know it costs a ton of money and man power hours.
    But I never understood these studies, such as this, and want to get definitive answers to make strategic decisions in the future, without
    collaring the Preds in the Area.
    It would really clarify who is doing what, and where and when.
    With tracking collars and todays technology, it should be pretty easy to see who did what.

    Obviously Car killed or unreported or even reported kills need to take the long route.

    The only other Stupid in all this, is the FN and if they are trying to see the value of such studies and are willing to say what their members
    are harvesting.
    whats the point of flying over every few years and taking count if no one knows what is either creating a surge in MD #'s or creating their
    demise.

    I sure would like a discussion with those involved in the study to explain how they do determine who killed what originally.
    24 hrs after a deer dies, and your guess is as good as mine as to what killed it?
    I am keeping an open mind and waiting for the data and the conclusion reached before I lay judgement on this study. But the common trend with these studies is they start with a theory and often lean data collection towards proving that theory correct. Often many factors are forgotten or ignored and blanks filled in with educated opinions rather then facts

    It would be nice to see things done in a non biases fashion and hope this is the case with this study. If the conclusion is one smoking gun that is blamed it will be a sure sign of BS or incomplete study

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