Question for the experts!?!?

[Bugle M In]

Not sure where we are at in this thread as I have been away. (have tried to read thru all this however).
My understanding of the MD study underway is that all the does were bred/pregnant.
So, we are managing something right if you ask me in regards to buck to doe ratios and having some doe leh etc.
Also tells me that there are other factors "more at work" creating declines than worrying about a few doe leh permits.
Again, just because we were to "eliminate" doe leh, will "not" guarantee an increase in MD population.
Again, you have to deal with the "real issues" causing their declines.
Eliminating doe leh would be like sticking a band aid on a severed artery expecting it to stop the bleeding.

As for the Elk and J-T's thoughts, I hear what he is saying.
Eliminating the archery portion of the hunt is not going to create more elk either.
They eliminated much of the Cow LEH back in the late 90's and on top of that added 6pt restriction.
And that was back when there still were (based on counts) plenty of elk to go around.
All that was needed was a reduction in the cow leh permits, not a closure and all would have been fine.

Why did it fail??
Because no one in the ministry (or more so, the government) wanted to handle the hot potato of a wolf cull.
No one was listening and looking (maybe looked into but didn't care?) into why they were leaving the high country and "not returning".
And then the ranchers got their way and many hunters went along with it because of the "new opportunities"!
And why were hunters eager to hit the new opportunity?
Because they had limited the opportunities in the late 90's.

So yes, I see why some like to view hunters as the issue to many of the declines.
In a way, there is truth in it.
But the real reason is because of poorly managing the big issues that were/are hindering wildlife to recover.
From Preds to over logging and winter range loss.

But go ahead, use the "Band Aid" method and remove the Doe LEH's.
See where it gets you all.

I predict one day because of mis-management and people's beliefs in such factors like removing MD Doe LEH making the difference that the only
way you will be able to hunt is "if you win an LEH" permit for any and every species only.
Which means some will hunt several big game creatures while others sit the season out all together.
So hey, lets cut the Ministry some "more slack!"
Lets give them more options of further Restrictions on hunting for the future.
Look at how well that has worked!!!

Lets see.....
We will kill off the Moose in hopes that the wolves move on as to save the Caribou.
Now that sums up "BC Wildlife Management of the past 40 years"!!!
I wonder how much we hunters humor the "higher ups" when they see/listen/read about us "squabbling with each other" as to what we need to close off and restrict next??!!

[Ourea]

What about areas where MD are imploding where there few if any wolves?

[Bugle M In]

Wolves may only be "one issue" for declines, and yes, in some areas.
Other areas most likely suffer other "human factors".
Been on top of the plateau around Cache Creek/Kammy lately??
Fairly obvious to see the factors there and correlation to of time frame and declines.
Also, its an area that has Doe LEH (not a ranchers area to speak of) and there are no shortages of Does (imo).
Just never see an increase in Population over time even thought Does have fawns.

So, what are the other factors?
Maybe forests in that state (logged out) can only have a certain amount of carrying capacity???

Again, getting rid of the Doe or Cow LEH "can help" replenish stocks faster (that's a no brainer).
It's sort of why they got rid of most of the entire "Cow LEH" in the EK in the late 90's.
There was a concern about not enough Cows and that an implosion of Elk #'s could happen.

THE STUPID PART was, "it was working"!!
So yes, it proves that it can be a "positive" decision.
Lots of hunters would say there was an increase in overall elk by mid 2000's.

BUT, then some "geniuses" decided to go and have them "mowed down" by introducing "Zone X".
INSTEAD of either lifting the 6pt Restriction OR adding a few cows back to LEH or Both.
Worst part is, nobody really looked into what "other issues" were going on.
They just went ahead and applied Zone X and only now do they acknowledge a screw up, yet they still don't acknowledge it enough to fix the
real issues.

Like JT said, they will acknowledge the Blunder by limiting Bow Hunters.
As if that will somehow correct to Big F'up!!????

Was it the Bios?
I don't know?
Don't care anymore either. (I am not friends with them anyways).
I like to think however that Bio's only make "recommendations" based on the science and evidence they have on hand.
And if that is the case, than it tells me we have some real whack jobs right above the Bios in chain of command that are screwing up the province.
But, we hunters like to blame the BCWF and others for not seeing things getting fixed.
The real problem lies in the Minsitry.

I don't think most Bio's supported the Ban of the Grizzly Hunt province wide.
Yet, somehow that got implemented.
Makes one wonder how many other decisions (or lack of) have been made by those "same sort of people" on other policies.
Which in the end creates threads just like this one where hunters point fingers at other hunters.
That sort of same BS started about 40 years ago in many of the EK R&G Clubs.
Thus the road closures etc etc.
And again, after all this time, there is no game in many of the closed areas.

So, now I ask, "why is that"???
Cant blame over-hunting in those areas!

[Ourea]

So Bugle, let's toss the keys of the shop to you for a minute shall we...

We will give you basically no budget, get you to deal with politicians that know f*ckall about wildlife, all stakeholders that only want more yet give nothing, resource extraction that is off the chart (with FN eyeing up that prize) and you are a guy in an office who is passionate about wildlife yet you don't have a hammer let alone a screw driver.

If wildlife management and game bios disappeared tomorrow it wouldn't make one single solitary difference in solving wildlife issues that plague this province. Sooner that most get this thru their head the better.

[Bugle M In]

So Bugle, let's toss the keys of the shop to you for a minute shall we...

We will give you basically no budget, get you to deal with politicians that know f*ckall about wildlife, all stakeholders that only want more yet give nothing, resource extraction that is off the chart (with FN eyeing up that prize) and you are a guy in an office who is passionate about wildlife yet you don't have a hammer let alone a screw driver.

If wildlife management and game bios disappeared tomorrow it wouldn't make one single solitary difference in solving wildlife issues that plague this province. Sooner that most get this thru their head the better.

You said it perfectly.
It is a complex issue, way beyond comprehension anymore, imo.
So many factors that have caused the declines, not just to MD but every big game ungulate we hunt in BC.
I don't blame the Bios.
Their hands are tied.
I suspect the remove the Moose in hopes the Wolves move on to save the Boo was because they were told "Wolf Cull is not an option" to be tabled.
So, in that case, it is the only way they had.
Useless, but that is the truth.

The few #'s of Game remain will most likely mean we will have to pay to get thru the FN gates.
And hunters seem so restricted in their thought that they tend to blame the next guy for shooting their game.
Meanwhile we have other user groups who thinks their shit doesn't smell (just like the LM cyclists) and that they have no impact and that it is us gun
totting hillbillies that have killed off all the game.
Only have to look at J Pod Orcas and all the BS Restrictions that just happened recently.

That is the Trend.
It has always ben the trend!

The only Group of Conservationists to have made a difference in the past 40 years is the Freshwater Society and our BC Lakes and Trout Fisheries.
One reason being because there is no "Economic Industry" involved in "harvesting trout" for commercial reasons.
The 2nd being that Lakes are a "controlled environment" in which to apply "strategies" and "assistance" and at a fairly cheap expense.
And even with that, Lakes suffer from Industrial Repercussions at times. (Logging and PH levels as well as all sorts of other issues, including Cattle,
and water levels.)

Now you take that and multiply by 10,000 towards Land Use and Wildlife and we all can see where the problems lie.
Hunting Restrictions will do sweet F'all to combat the "real problems".
And the government, especially the one in power right now would love to see hunters as one less factor to contend with anyways.

[Bugle M In]

CURT (OP),
With all due respect, I honestly have to say you "question" sucks s***!
Reason being, you lack "merit" in the question as to "what you are experiencing" out in the woods and asking "why do we have a MD Doe LEH".
As far as I see, you have 2 ways to ask it (imo).

1) Why do we have a MD Doe LEH "due" to "a lack of MD population" in general?
2) Why do we have a MD Doe LEH "due" to " a lack of MD Doe" in the population??

Both have very different answers if you ask me, but you have to ask it one way or the other, not in a "general term" without "cause and affect".

If you take #2 (a lack of Doe in the MD population) than your question has some reason.
So, are you noticing a "lack of Doe"??
I know I cant say that is the case foe me where I hunt MD!
I see plenty of Females and for the most part come November, have at least 1 offspring with them.
If I understood Dana when he was on here, he wasn't complaining about lack of Doe, but rather that the wolves were eating them and for the most part
that he could no longer find a decent mature Buck and felt that if it wasn't the wolves shitting them out, that hunters were dropping bucks at a much to
early an age. (that's how I interpreted his comments at the time)
For me, I even see bucks, but would have to admit that finding a mature buck is getting harder.
But Trophy sized buck have "nothing to do with Doe LEH".

An example of Female LEH being an issues is back in the 90's while hunting elk in the EK.
We saw elk, and the #'s were decent.
Issue was, all of us in the area all felt the same.
We were seeing more bulls than females, by a long shot.
That was "not normal"!
Seeing 3 to 4 bulls for every 1 or 2 cows was not right. (should have been atleast 4 to 5 Cows per bull and even as high as 40 per bull back in the good old days)
So yes, I supported having the Cow LEH reduced, if not down right stopped at the time!
(which they did do, but somewhere got the idea that 6pt was needed???? made no sense as no one was complaining about low bull #'s)

So, if you are seeing very few MD Doe, then you have a valid question, imo.
But, I don't hear that as an issue.

So that leaves scenario #1.
A lack of MD in general.
Well then, I ask "Why"???

Again, I refer to the elk in the EK Trench for an example.
Reminding you once again that they basically eliminated to cow leh where I was.
And it helped, we started to see 4 or 5 cows per bull (what it should be, imo)
But then it stopped!
Not just Cows, but Bulls too.
In other words, "No elk"!

So, explain to me, after they removed the Cow LEH (just like you are asking to have the Doe MD LEH removed), why did elk "disappear"???
If you reasoning for "creating more MD" is thru "eliminating" the "MD Doe LEH".
Than tell me why we do not have 20,000 elk in the EK Trench by now??????

Reason being, IT was "OTHER FACTORS" causing the decline.

Cows came back after 1998, slowly at first and then snowballed.
All looked good.
Back then, logging in the area was minimal, and to be honest, they were only doing "spot logging" to try to cut out the beetle from invading.
That spot logging was fantastic for all ungulates at the time.
Never saw so much game then at that time!

But then it changed to "full scale" cutting.
And, starting seeing Bear, both Gbear and BBear and also Cats (something I had never seen, only heard of!).
Wolves, yes, they were there, always!, but seem to be getting more active and higher in #'s.

So, remind me why removing the "Female LEH" of any species will create a huge resurgence in wildlife populations of any of our species when we
now have so many "Other (and real) Factors" now creating the decline!!???

Hope that clarifies my insulting your question.
You have to tell us 1st what issue/s you are "experiencing".

Fix the other issues first and then I totally support removing female LEH for a time to help "pump up" the #'s again!
But absolutely useless to do so if the real issues are left unchecked.
That just gives the Government/Ministry a "way out"!!
The wrong way out!, imo.

[Walking Buffalo]

What about areas where MD are imploding where there few if any wolves?

Following current managment logic, kill the moose, elk and whitetails to starve the cougars and bears....

I imagine Boyce is still having nightmares that he ever suggested putting this theory to the test, watching it become standard practice despite neutral to negative results.

[horshur]

Following current managment logic, kill the moose, elk and whitetails to starve the cougars and bears....

I imagine Boyce is still having nightmares that he ever suggested putting this theory to the test, watching it become standard practice despite neutral to negative results.

Lol........

[horshur]

You cannot have a steady reliable never changing high population ...

[Bugle M In]

You cannot have a steady reliable never changing high population ...

Nope, that is impossible.
Like the MD die off years ago of up to 50% after a bad winter.
There are lots of factors that come into play.
Thing is, when it's mother nature that does the dealing, lots of dead corpses can be found in quick succession.
Thus one can ascertain the problem.

When it come to the last 10 years in the EK and elk, mother nature had very little to do with that.

I did try to show folks here thru google time lapse at one point what the landscape looked like in the mid 80's and how much it changed since then.
One can really see the alterations visually around 2000.
Which is probably around the time many start to wonder what is going on with the game #'s.
And that is only one factor.
Throw in all the other factors that have been mentioned on HBC over the past 5 years and it should be no surprise why things are the way they are.

If we think just stopping the hunting of all female species of ungulates is going to fix this, than some of us truly are lost.

And yes, I am glad I am not a Bio.
I would have been fired years ago because I wouldn't have been able to bite my lip with "upper management".
I really don't have a clue how we undo this rats nest.
Ourea is right, we have to contend with FN, together with Industry (people need jobs), a growing and expanding population in BC as well as a whole
ton of other user groups now, all fighting to have a piece of the pie.
And sadly, mother nature isn't making more property!
I have no idea how wildlife is to survive in the ever shrinking landscape they call home, and filled more and more by the preds designed to hunt them.

I think this is all just the "reality" of humans and wildlife trying to co-habitat.
It just wont work in the end, no matter what we do and we have some folks at the top making decisions which are not making it any easier.
5 years ago we complained about a bunch of issues.
5 years later, we haven't solved any of them and worse, we now have more added to it than back then!