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Thread: Question for the experts!?!?

  1. #31
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    Re: Question for the experts!?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocksteady View Post
    One thing you are forgetting is there was 2 or maybe 3 years that they had an "any antlerless" season for 10 days in the main trench of the Rocky Mountains, to thin the herds to appease the ranchers. It would not show up in your stats for leh, but it had a HUGE impact on populations.

    Im not forgetting anything! My 2 posts we’re in response to Curt’s comment about 33 cow elk tags being a cash grab.
    Killing 33 cows over 200sq km will not hurt the population in any way. Harvesting some cows is healthier for the herd as a whole.

    High predator numbers were going to destroy the ungulate numbers.....the leh cow season just helped it happen sooner.

    Curt....my feathers aren’t ruffled at all. Not that it matters but the last cow elk I killed was in 2005!

  2. #32
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    Re: Question for the experts!?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by curt View Post
    Why would it be hard to reinstate hunts they are the ones making the rules they can open and close seasons all they want. I think you are giving the ministry a lot more credit than they deserve. if you honestly think they care about your hunting opportunities well you are definitely a positive person good for you! I honestly believe they generate money off the backs of hunter while miss managing our wildlife. Do you even think they really know what’s going on out there I don’t it’s even been said on here they don’t often do counts because it’s costly!! Anyways it was just a question I was hoping for some scientific logic to help me understand QUOTE=boxhitch;2101269]Any idea why they put out a leh hunt op with only one tag?
    Its so the hunt stays alive. They have reduced the permit numbers because the pop number target has been achieved and in some cases due to pressure. If they went to zero, the chance of reinstating the hunt when they wanted is far more difficult if not impossible. The permit numbers has to be kept fluid for proper management and to allow opportunity.
    Any idea how much the entire LEH process generates for income?
    But is has to be about the money , right
    Who's getting fired up, and whos coming into this conversation with preconceived notions and challenging valid reasons that don't fit your preconceived notions? If you wanted a bunch of yes men to simply agree to your thoughts on the subject, this was the wrong forum haha.
    Have you ever sat down with a regoinal wildlife manager or biologist? I find it insulting that you believe these guys would care at all about the money, they certainly don't see any of it unfortunately. They would love to see all of our license and tag fees go directly into their budgets, Ive been told they wouldn't even have the resources to spend that much $, so to say these guys don't care about anything but our money when they are actively out there doing their best to influence policy, make sound decisions and work with politicians when they too are hunters and volunteers is ludicrous. You need to get over your preconceptions and educate yourself as to who does what and how much we contribute. even if its $10 million, staggering number to me and you, but to a province that runs revenue around $59 billion...think about that

    Quote Originally Posted by curt View Post
    My mom works very closely with the CO’s and has for 20 plus years every decision made is centred around money trust me on that!!
    The CO's are not the wildlife managers. They both have shit budgets, so ya, the CO's need to watch how much fuel they burn, how much time out in the field they can have, and how many stupid calls they MUST attend to for problems like people encountering a bear in the bush that is being a bear, or a cub on the side of the road cause mom got hit by a car...
    Last edited by Darksith; 07-03-2019 at 10:49 AM.
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  3. #33
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    Re: Question for the experts!?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Petros65 View Post
    Very simple answer to your question.

    The ideal wilderness ratio for game is 1-1. Does cannot create more deer by themselves (its takes 2 to tango - biology 101).

    Every single bit of research ever conducted indicates that not shooting does has zero effect on population.

    The archaic idea that hunters must not shoot does is not based in any reality (probably comes from the Puritanical periods in the USA where females were considered lesser to males)

    https://www.wideopenspaces.com/shoot...tead-of-bucks/ (makes for a good read)


    Then as always look to Southern Africa countries (Botswana, Namibia, Zambia, South Africa, Zimbabwe)---- they hunt everything equally and they have the most successful hunting models yet devised.
    Im not sure where you are getting any of your facts. Ideal ratio's are not 1:1, the bucks would eat up too much of the feed and it would be hard for doe's to remain healthy enough to birth and raise healthy you. A buck will impregnate 120-20 does a year.
    South Africa and those successful African nations don't have the most successful hunting models, they have their own challenges but rely heavily on private land owners, and I don't believe there is much local recreational non guided hunting opportunities. That being said their challenges are not comparable to the challenges we have in North America. They are doing a fine job with the tools they have, but to say their model is better than the north american model is flawed at best. The increase in things like turkey, whitetail deer and many other species in north america since we stopped hunting wild came for commercial purposes is second to none
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  4. #34
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    Re: Question for the experts!?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darksith View Post
    Im not sure where you are getting any of your facts. Ideal ratio's are not 1:1, the bucks would eat up too much of the feed and it would be hard for doe's to remain healthy enough to birth and raise healthy you. A buck will impregnate 120-20 does a year.
    South Africa and those successful African nations don't have the most successful hunting models, they have their own challenges but rely heavily on private land owners, and I don't believe there is much local recreational non guided hunting opportunities. That being said their challenges are not comparable to the challenges we have in North America. They are doing a fine job with the tools they have, but to say their model is better than the north american model is flawed at best. The increase in things like turkey, whitetail deer and many other species in north america since we stopped hunting wild came for commercial purposes is second to none

    He is getting the info from the article.
    At first glance 1:1 ration seems wrong and I think that would be the consensus everywhere in BC.
    But if you think about it what you are quoting 12-20 does for 1 buck does not say anything about non breeding bucks.
    If one buck will breed 12-20 does in season where are non-breeding bucks counted.
    Some bucks even though they are sexually mature won't breed because the strongest buck won't let them.
    1:1 ratio assumes that if there is 1 buck for every 20 does there may be another 19 young non-breeding bucks.

    So 1:1 seems logical.

    I mean what is the male/female ratio in other mammals?
    Or other ungulates?
    1. Human over population
    2. Government burden and overreach

  5. #35
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    Re: Question for the experts!?!?

    In the past for moose a bull/cow ratio of 45:100 was optimum. Not sure if this is still the Province's goal.

  6. #36
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    Re: Question for the experts!?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocksteady View Post
    One thing you are forgetting is there was 2 or maybe 3 years that they had an "any antlerless" season for 10 days in the main trench of the Rocky Mountains, to thin the herds to appease the ranchers. It would not show up in your stats for leh, but it had a HUGE impact on populations.
    They have also cancelled the 10 day antlerless archery season Sept 10-19 in zone x. This accounted for 15 animals last year. Do we know how many people participated in that hunt? My message to the Ministry, if we're still hunting 6pts, with rifle, in the rut and we're issuing LEh, we're obviously confused about the best approach to take to manage elk population recovery. Habitat, predation, unlicenced are key factors . And if we're cancelling seasons because of a harvest of 15 elk, we're in much worse shape politically and scientifically than they are willing to discuss.

  7. #37
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    Re: Question for the experts!?!?

    I would have to agree with you I think you’re onto something I don’t think the biologists have a very good finger on the pulse I think they look at very general statistics not specific areas
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimrod View Post
    I've wondered about this as well but assumed they are trying to balance the buck doe ratio.
    I think it still science based with good intentions however one of my favorite spots has had a very noticeable decline in Mulies in the last 10 years but the doe LEH is still disturbingly high. I think the bio's dont have the resources to really understand the population on a micro sub region level and the formula they use to extrapolate population inflated the count in small isolated populations, so applying a broad macro approach to authorizations is causing damage in these areas.

  8. #38
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    Re: Question for the experts!?!?

    Awesome thanks for the support again I’m not judging people If it’s legal to shoot does or Cows and people do it so be it I just think it’s very counterproductive and I feel it contradicts what we are trying to do with the populations,And I honestly believe if the biologist would actually listen to the hunters a little bit more our wildlife situation would be Much healthier ;2101317]Great question curt. I'm probably not smarter than you but I'll pipe in anyways. LOL I agree with all that you said. When you look at the antlerless elk draws, 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 and so on a whole pile of regions, coupled with the numbers of applicants for these draws, the financial incentive is huge. One animal per unit will do squat for population control. You're bang on bud. It's all about the money.

    Kind of would be nice if a poster can ask a question or make a comment without always having to be on the defensive. Just my 2 cents worth.[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by curt; 07-05-2019 at 10:17 PM.

  9. #39
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    Re: Question for the experts!?!?

    Makes sense to me

  10. #40
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    Re: Question for the experts!?!?


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