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Thread: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
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    4,308

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild one View Post
    I would say this ram falls under the same category as an elk that broke of its 6th point you can tell the tine was there but with it missing it falls short of legal requirements

    I think most would agree it’s 8+year old ram but it falls shy of physical legally required evidence

    Sorry but I have to respect the bio’s call on this one
    Not wanting to stray too far from the op, but does that work both ways? If a mature bull moose has broken of all but a chunk of one antler, can it be "legally" classed as an immature?

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Kamloops
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    814

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    I don't have anything to add really,

    But I will say, as a hunter going Into my third year only, it's posts like this that keep me away from hunting some of the species BC has to offer !

    Maybe as the years pass I'll feel more confident in my abilities but for now I wouldn't even want to begin having the burden of aging a moving animal like this, when it can literally come down to personal in
    Interpretation.. it's hard enough to count 4 points on a mule deer let alone age a sheep based on growth lines !

    I'll let all you brave folks put in that hard word.
    Proud member of the Second Nations community.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    4,215

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Boy that sucks.
    Clearly broomed off and would have been 8.5.
    Glad I don't have the passion (or physical ability) to go and hunt them anymore.
    I feel bad for the kid, but seeing the regs, it did not qualify.
    Last edited by Bugle M In; 05-09-2019 at 09:31 AM.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    724

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Is there not any other way to age sheep like their teeth? Just as a double check in situations like this were he was obv broomed off?

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    1,365

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Truly feel for this young guy, tough lesson to learn, but if there is a silver lining at least social media has been exceptionally kind and shared a lot of empathy with him

    having only been on 4 sheep hunts myself, and only 1 trip with a potential legal ram, can fully appreciate his thought process at the time, but based on the wording of the regs can also understand why the inspector made his decision

    Mountain Sheep - Full Curl Thinhorn Ram - means any thinhorn ram mountain sheep that has attained the age of 8 years as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or his designate, or whose horn tip, when viewed squarely from the side at right angles to the sagittal plane of the skull, extends dorsally beyond the nose bridge plane. Do not use yearly horn growth annuli to determine the age of a ram in the field, because “false” annuli may be present


    I haven't read what penalty or hunting suspension the kid suffered? The lack of incisor tooth is interesting, even if the ram was determined to be legal, would there still be a fine for leaving the incisor on the mountain? from the regs:

    COMPULSORY INSPECTIONCompulsory Inspectors will not complete thecompulsory inspection unless ALL informationand parts are submitted and able to becollected


    "Jex cited his department’s use of more modern studies, tooth age analysis and X-rays, although the judge noted he had no formal training in interpreting X-rays. He did provide extensive data sets and graphs from his department’s records and reported the plaintiff had not submitted an incisor tooth for analysis, failing to add to the required burden of proof.

    The final judgement said it was “not a straight-forward exercise” due to the experts’ profound disagreements but ruled against Crawford, stating the failure to submit the incisor tooth had added to the judge’s view he had not established “on a balance of probabilities” the ram was eight years old."

    https://www.sookenewsmirror.com/news...return-of-ram/


    Unfortunately, the rifles are getting lighter because we are getting heavier and more unfit as a society. This is the key to the mainstream acceptance of the short magnums. - Nathan Foster

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    27

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Unfortunately even the BC regs stipulate "True horn Annuli" not Visible horn annuli and that is where the discrepancy lies. There are hundreds of Plugged rams across the province with 7 visible annuli. I ended up shooting a very large ram the next year that only had 7 visible annuli and it was aged at 8.5 years old. Same mountain, same cohort of sheep, same genetics, same age. As for the teeth, unfortunately both jaws were left in the mountains as 2016 was the first year of mandatory teeth submission. However cutting and aging teeth is as subjective as aging horn annuli and often cannot yield a definitive age. There is no literature to back up aging of horns based on lamb tip growth by x ray and all x rays shown to the court were harder to age then looking at the horn themselves. Very tough situation.
    Last edited by Romain; 05-09-2019 at 10:06 AM.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    4,471

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Dam!
    I feel bad for the kid too.
    I just dont get common sence some times.
    Some say 1st anuli at tip 2.5 yrs. Others dont.
    True 7.5 is obvious ...... But in tight to the skull the anuli get stacked like on top each other and are hard to clearly identify.
    This Ram was taken to the actual Bio.....not one of the misinformed part time inspectors..... Im disappointed along with you.

    All that said.....its a tough call to put the hammer down on this guy when 7 are shown not 8.
    Landcasters experience of over 100 Rams.... Geists experience these should count for something.
    IMO...... I think the Bio and Judge got this one WRONG.

    Tough loss to the young fellow.
    BC's Wildlife belongs to BC Residents .......

    BC WILDLIFE is not for corporate greed to benefit Foreighn Owned GOs.

    POACHERS are not HUNTERS as the media posts.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    4,215

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    "True" over "Visible" annuli is a great argument.
    Something the Ministry may need to revisit.
    The lack of tooth doesn't help either.

    This is one of those cases I hate hearing about as I don't think anybody had a bad intent in this case.
    (Far different than that 1 hunter taking a record ram in the Yukon, but was only to hunt in BC)
    The intent there was obvious.

    I have seen several bull elk taken that I would never have taken.
    2 of them might be arguable as to if that 6th point (if you could call it that?) made it legal.
    The other was one the definitely would not have passed at all but the hunter was adamite it was legal.
    I just leave it to the CO's to figure out if they ever did get checked on their drive out.

    Hopefully in this case the courts showed some sort of empathy for young guy and the ministry as well and
    didn't make him suffer to severe of consequences?

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Lower Mainland
    Posts
    52

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Tough pill to swallow, the regs state "True Horn Annuli" but I mean, come on. That's an 8.5 year old ram, maybe older.

    When you have guys like Dustin Roe, Clay Lancaster and Valerius Geist all in agreement, that has to count for something I would think.

    Any idea on the penalty? Hopefully not anything ridiculous. Also hope this experience doesn't turn a young kid off sheep hunting and all the great that comes with it.

    My one thought that comes of this is the thought process for others heading into the mountains, theres many great, broomed rams that are taken. But after reading this, a guy could walk up on a band of rams which has 2 legal, a 10 year old broomed(just below the bridge), and a 7 year old tipped ram(barely over the bridge). With knowing this story and having a fear of loosing the broomed ram like in this case, guys could choose to harvest the younger ram. Which to me isn't right, the oldest ram should always be taken over the younger. Hopefully that makes sense.
    Last edited by porthunter; 05-09-2019 at 10:39 AM.
    I'll take a bottle of glacier water at 6,000' over a bottle of tequila in mexico any day

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  10. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,059

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    The call on that sheep is a tuff deal.
    Without a doubt the ram was 8+ years old....but the annuli to show that are not there.
    Bill Jex could only make the call that he did in this case...going by the visible annuli the ram is 7+.
    It’s too bad a tooth hadn’t been pulled...but there can be variances there as well.

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