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Thread: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

  1. #111
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Northern BC
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    321

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    I think the question a judge has to ask is: is there doubt as to the legality of the sheep as defined by law?

    In this case, the law states: "full curl thinhorn ram mountain sheep" means any thinhorn ram mountain sheep that has attained the age of 8 years as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or designate, or whose horn tip, when viewed squarely from the side at right angles to the sagittal plane of the skull, extends dorsally beyond the nose bridge plane;

    So while I agree that the sheep more than likely is 8 years old, it does not meet the full curl physical definition and is not aged at 8, as evidenced by true horn annuli.
    If the government started giving a pass on something as important as what defines a legal sheep from an illegal sheep, as stated by law, then that is a slippery slope to go down.

    I am not debating on assumed age (8.5), but I wouldn't have shot that ram myself.

    Maybe the law needs to be re-written, but I am not sure how it could be made clearer. Unfortunate situation though.
    Last edited by kitnayakwa77; 05-15-2019 at 11:21 AM.

  2. #112
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    Feb 2009
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    8,515

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by bighornbob View Post
    As it sits now the aging of horns was brought in so guys could shoot 10-11 year olds that may never be above the bridge of the hose. It was not meant to shoot an eight year old that has broomed off his lamb tip regardless how big the ram is. So this thread and other people complaining to the government will get the law changed to say that the horn must have 8 annuli showing for it to be legal.
    The problem that is going to happen is people will start shooting rams on what they think is an annuli and you will get sheep shot that have 8 rings but not true annuli. People will fight these in court and the government to avoid going to court on whats a ring and whats not will simply eliminate the ageing of rams. Can you say Spences bridge?
    Now guys are complaining that they are seeing mature rams that are 10+ years old and will never be above the bridge of the nose.

    BHB
    I think BHB's post here says it best and "WHY" the regs and law is written the way it is.
    It's there to allow very old rams with heavy brooms to be taken using the annuli.
    But, the annuli have to be "present".

    I appreciate the OP bringing this topic forward and sharing it.
    I know it is not always easy to do so here and if in the wrong can lead to being lambasted at times.
    It really gave a lot to think about and more importantly, to be aware of.

    Just FYI, I don't begrudged the lad that he took the ram and ended up being in the wrong.
    It happens and we all can learn from someone else's mistakes.
    (obvious it was accidental and they took their time and believed they were right)
    After all, it could have been one of us just as easily by not understanding the full scope of the Regs
    and definitions by law.

  3. #113
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Lower Mainland
    Posts
    343

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Just out of curiosity, I don't have much of an opinion on it personally but what is peoples opinion on the "Double Broomed" rule for hunting dall sheep in Alaska?

    For anyone who doesn't know, a ram is legal if both tips on his horns are broken/broomed.
    Life begins where your comfort zone ends

    WSSBC Monarch; RMGA; 2% for Conservation Certified; WSF; BCWF

  4. #114
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    Feb 2009
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    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by porthunter View Post
    Just out of curiosity, I don't have much of an opinion on it personally but what is peoples opinion on the "Double Broomed" rule for hunting dall sheep in Alaska?

    For anyone who doesn't know, a ram is legal if both tips on his horns are broken/broomed.
    It's basically the same rule:

    "A ram with the tips of both horns broken, or broomed. A ram at least 8 years old as determined by counting annual horn rings and segments. ... If a ram's horns are not legal based on degree of curl or broken tips, you are responsible for counting at least 8 true annuli before attempting to take the ram."

  5. #115
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    Oct 2012
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    Lower Mainland
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    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    It's basically the same rule:

    "A ram with the tips of both horns broken, or broomed. A ram at least 8 years old as determined by counting annual horn rings and segments. ... If a ram's horns are not legal based on degree of curl or broken tips, you are responsible for counting at least 8 true annuli before attempting to take the ram."
    I dont think it is. The rule of "double broomed" rams is not affected by age or annuli. If a ram has 2 broomed horns hes legal as per their law, regardless of visible annuli.
    Last edited by porthunter; 05-15-2019 at 07:00 PM.
    Life begins where your comfort zone ends

    WSSBC Monarch; RMGA; 2% for Conservation Certified; WSF; BCWF

  6. #116
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Peace Region
    Posts
    195

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    I attended a sheep hunting seminar at Backcountry in Fort St John a few years ago. Some great presentations by guides, biologists and others. On of the big take always for me was judging a legal sheep by counting the rings on the crown. Is that a bad practice? It seems to work well however based on many of these comments it sounds like it could easily result in an illegal ram. I still think there is room to interpret "evidenced by" but am now second guessing my understanding of this.

  7. #117
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
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    7

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by RJHunter View Post
    I attended a sheep hunting seminar at Backcountry in Fort St John a few years ago. Some great presentations by guides, biologists and others. On of the big take always for me was judging a legal sheep by counting the rings on the crown. Is that a bad practice? It seems to work well however based on many of these comments it sounds like it could easily result in an illegal ram. I still think there is room to interpret "evidenced by" but am now second guessing my understanding of this.
    "4 in the crown, knock it down" generally means the ram is 8 however you should still count every ring. If this ram had one tip then the rule would work. Even tho this ram is 8.5 clearly they decided to age it at 7. Feel bad for the kid.

  8. #118
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    1,676

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kddowds View Post
    "4 in the crown, knock it down" generally means the ram is 8 however you should still count every ring. If this ram had one tip then the rule would work. Even tho this ram is 8.5 clearly they decided to age it at 7. Feel bad for the kid.
    Can you explain what the the crown is?

  9. #119
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    7

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by whitlers View Post
    Can you explain what the the crown is?
    From the base of horn down to the eye and then 90 degrees straight back, if that ring is straight across or slanted upwards and you can count four rings or more above it then the sheep will be 8+. It's a cool trick and if you know how to use it it's accurate but it's always good to count them all! Hope that makes sense

  10. #120
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    8,515

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by porthunter View Post


    I dont think it is. The rule of "double broomed" rams is not affected by age or annuli. If a ram has 2 broomed horns hes legal as per their law, regardless of visible annuli.
    Yes, I believe you are right, it isn't the same.
    IF the OP's ram was taken in Alaska, it would have been legal.
    (Out of Alaskan Regs):
    A legal ram under a full-curl regulation is:
    • A full-curl ram, whose tip of at least one horn has grown through
    360
    o of a circle described by the outer surface of the horn, as
    viewed from the side (Figure 1).
    • A ram with the tips of both horns broken which means the lamb
    tip is completely absent. Horn tips that are chipped or cracked
    are not considered broken if any portion of the lamb tip is present
    (Figure 2).
    Lamb tip characteristics:
    • a length of less than four inches;
    • the inside surface of the lamb tip is distinctly concave when
    compared to the remainder of the horn;
    • the lamb tip is the section of a horn that is grown during the
    first six months of a sheep’s life and is the section of horn
    distal of the first annulus, which is the swelling of the horn
    that forms during the first winter of life.
    • A ram at least 8 years old as determined by counting annual
    horn rings and segments (Figure 3). If a ram’s horns are not legal
    based on degree of curl or broken tips, you are responsible for
    counting at least 8 true annuli before attempting to take the ram.
    It is difficult and ill-advised to age a ram in the field by only count
    ing
    horn rings because of false annuli and narrow horn segments
    on older rams
    .

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