Warning to bc sheep hunters.

[358mag]

So Wild one, here’s a question......in an area that’s already LEH for sheep and the resident harvest is not being met under the current regulations.....what is wrong with an “ANY RAM LEH” as long as the issued authorizations are kept within a range that ensures an overharvest does not occur?

Sure the Federation would have something to say about that . Good luck with that .

[boxhitch]

All this flak over a single incident?
No need to change anything. In the big picture harvest age is good, minimal hassle with short sheep, pops. appear okay as the day/kill are trundling along fine.

Each year there are short/young sheep confiscated, and each year there are ones that get through the inspection.

It only takes fb and hbc to make a mountain of a mole hill
BC's gos thinhorns is something to be cherished and protected
Taking older class rams has proven to be sustainable, start messing with younger kills and the whole hunt will go to shite

[boxhitch]

I think they should hash out why professionals disagree on the age of the sheep before they change the regs.

Hopefully the new requirement of a tooth for truth will finally put a nail in that.
What won't end is the subjective count of what is missing from a broomed horn, thin or big.

[358mag]

All this flak over a single incident? wtf
No need to change anything. In the big picture harvest age is good, minimal hassle with short sheep, pops. appear okay as the day/kill are trundling along fine.

Each year there are short/young sheep confiscated, and each year there are ones that get through the inspection.

It only takes fb and hbc to make a mountain of a mole hill
BC's gos thinhorns is something to be cherished and protected
Taking older class rams has proven to be sustainable, start messing with younger kills and the whole hunt will go to shite

No kidding we in BC have no idea how lucky we have it with a GOS on Stone's Sheep .
Hope it stays that way so my grandsons and there kids will be able to enjoy the experience that we were able to do.
When in doubt , don't shoot !!! .

[Wild one]

So Wild one, here’s a question......in an area that’s already LEH for sheep and the resident harvest is not being met under the current regulations.....what is wrong with an “ANY RAM LEH” as long as the issued authorizations are kept within a range that ensures an overharvest does not occur?

My uneducated opinion I can’t see why not if RH is not being met

[bearvalley]

My uneducated opinion I can’t see why not if RH is not being met

You’re catching on!

[bearvalley]

Sure the Federation would have something to say about that . Good luck with that .

Does it really matter?

[VLD43]

A sliding 'trophy fee' scale.
Over the bridge . . . no fee.
Each increment below the bridge, an incremental larger 'trophy fee'.
Hunter keeps his ram.

While this is a good idea it would not fly. I made the very same suggestion 25 years ago to two wildlife biologists. They took the idea forward to the CO branch who quickly nixed the idea. Their response was that it would be impossible to manage regarding enforcement. Another suggestion made regarding LEH for any ram is also not a good idea, as the whole purpose of harvesting rams of a defined maturity or age is to ensure older rams that are past their prime breeding age are killed. The rams in the prime of their breeding years are to be left alone. The whole aging discussion is a complicated one. You used to be able to shoot Rocky MTN Bighorns and Cali's based on age. That requirement was abandoned years ago, because to many under age rams were being shot. Spences Bridge went from full curl to mature full curl for exactly the same reason. There is no simple answer here, other than for the most part Sheep Hunting takes a lot of discipline knowledge and hard work. It's not for everyone, but is it well worth the effort, if you have what it takes.

[Tron]

I’ve spoken with a ci about a broomed off ram. He said if it has 6 visible annuli and he can see it’s broomed off the first and second years annuli he can pass it with a age of eight based on his or her expertise and what else they see indicating age. If it’s is broomed more than this a biologist has to do the ci but can then pass it based on there expertise and other things as well. I’ve seen a ram with both horns broken off 7” long and 5 visible annuli on each horn get aged at 10 years old and was plugged. So for them to only use the visible annuli to age that ram is false

[Rampager]

Truly feel for this young guy, tough lesson to learn, but if there is a silver lining at least social media has been exceptionally kind and shared a lot of empathy with him

having only been on 4 sheep hunts myself, and only 1 trip with a potential legal ram, can fully appreciate his thought process at the time, but based on the wording of the regs can also understand why the inspector made his decision

Mountain Sheep - Full Curl Thinhorn Ram - means any thinhorn ram mountain sheep that has attained the age of 8 years as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or his designate, or whose horn tip, when viewed squarely from the side at right angles to the sagittal plane of the skull, extends dorsally beyond the nose bridge plane. Do not use yearly horn growth annuli to determine the age of a ram in the field, because “false” annuli may be present


I haven't read what penalty or hunting suspension the kid suffered? The lack of incisor tooth is interesting, even if the ram was determined to be legal, would there still be a fine for leaving the incisor on the mountain? from the regs:

COMPULSORY INSPECTIONCompulsory Inspectors will not complete thecompulsory inspection unless ALL informationand parts are submitted and able to becollected


"Jex cited his department’s use of more modern studies, tooth age analysis and X-rays, although the judge noted he had no formal training in interpreting X-rays. He did provide extensive data sets and graphs from his department’s records and reported the plaintiff had not submitted an incisor tooth for analysis, failing to add to the required burden of proof.

The final judgement said it was “not a straight-forward exercise” due to the experts’ profound disagreements but ruled against Crawford, stating the failure to submit the incisor tooth had added to the judge’s view he had not established “on a balance of probabilities” the ram was eight years old."

https://www.sookenewsmirror.com/news...return-of-ram/

To me the issue lies with the subjectivity in the words "as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or his designate".

Someone earlier in this thread made a comparison between true horn annuli and visible horn annuli. Up until now I understood the intent of the words true annuli as to mean not false annuli, rather than visible annuli. I attended Bill Jex's aging seminar at the sheep show this year and one of the topics he spoke on, and had graphs to show it, was the very, very predictable growth pattern of horns. I'm sure everyone experienced in aging sheep knows that based on this universally accepted pattern there is a year of growth broken off this ram in question. So why wasn't the regional manager or his designate able to see this and say the ram was 8+?

The judge cited "had not established on a balance of probabilities the ram was eight years old." This is the part I don't get. If everyone and their dog, even BJ as evidenced by his presentations, knows this ram is 8 due to the universally accepted growth pattern? It's more like on the balance of probabilities (and then some) the ram certainly is 8!

The issue with the current regulations is the power given to the "regional manager or his designate" to legally "determine" what the "true horn annuli evidence."

In my opinion the regs need to be updated to clarify this issue one way or the other. It is simply unacceptable for it to be possible for a sheep to be deemed legal by one inspector but not by another. This rule needs to be 100% objective.