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Thread: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

  1. #111
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    I thought about it last night afterwards.

    I know I have come across a bull elk, who was a 6pt bull on both sides.
    But this bull had broken off his 5th point (virtually clean off) on his left side.
    And you know, we almost screwed up and hadn't seen that also on his right side, his brow tine was missing as well.

    So, by "legal definition" the bull was "not legal to take" as it wasn't "technically a 6pt".
    (Even though genetically and by age, he was a 6x6 a few weeks earlier)

    So this isn't just an issue specific to sheep.
    We have the same "legalities" to deal with on other species as well.

    The only difference that I am reading on this thread is that every inspector/CO would not allow a 5x5 bull
    be taken even with broken of tines.
    Sounds like depending on what inspector is involved with the sheep, the outcome cane be different.
    (Though, if you stick to the regs, it shouldn't be different outcomes)

  2. #112
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    Apr 2011
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    Skeena River 6-15
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    192

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    I think the question a judge has to ask is: is there doubt as to the legality of the sheep as defined by law?

    In this case, the law states: "full curl thinhorn ram mountain sheep" means any thinhorn ram mountain sheep that has attained the age of 8 years as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or designate, or whose horn tip, when viewed squarely from the side at right angles to the sagittal plane of the skull, extends dorsally beyond the nose bridge plane;

    So while I agree that the sheep more than likely is 8 years old, it does not meet the full curl physical definition and is not aged at 8, as evidenced by true horn annuli.
    If the government started giving a pass on something as important as what defines a legal sheep from an illegal sheep, as stated by law, then that is a slippery slope to go down.

    I am not debating on assumed age (8.5), but I wouldn't have shot that ram myself.

    Maybe the law needs to be re-written, but I am not sure how it could be made clearer. Unfortunate situation though.
    Last edited by kitnayakwa77; 05-15-2019 at 11:21 AM.

  3. #113
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    Feb 2009
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    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by bighornbob View Post
    As it sits now the aging of horns was brought in so guys could shoot 10-11 year olds that may never be above the bridge of the hose. It was not meant to shoot an eight year old that has broomed off his lamb tip regardless how big the ram is. So this thread and other people complaining to the government will get the law changed to say that the horn must have 8 annuli showing for it to be legal.
    The problem that is going to happen is people will start shooting rams on what they think is an annuli and you will get sheep shot that have 8 rings but not true annuli. People will fight these in court and the government to avoid going to court on whats a ring and whats not will simply eliminate the ageing of rams. Can you say Spences bridge?
    Now guys are complaining that they are seeing mature rams that are 10+ years old and will never be above the bridge of the nose.

    BHB
    I think BHB's post here says it best and "WHY" the regs and law is written the way it is.
    It's there to allow very old rams with heavy brooms to be taken using the annuli.
    But, the annuli have to be "present".

    I appreciate the OP bringing this topic forward and sharing it.
    I know it is not always easy to do so here and if in the wrong can lead to being lambasted at times.
    It really gave a lot to think about and more importantly, to be aware of.

    Just FYI, I don't begrudged the lad that he took the ram and ended up being in the wrong.
    It happens and we all can learn from someone else's mistakes.
    (obvious it was accidental and they took their time and believed they were right)
    After all, it could have been one of us just as easily by not understanding the full scope of the Regs
    and definitions by law.

  4. #114
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Lower Mainland
    Posts
    50

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Just out of curiosity, I don't have much of an opinion on it personally but what is peoples opinion on the "Double Broomed" rule for hunting dall sheep in Alaska?

    For anyone who doesn't know, a ram is legal if both tips on his horns are broken/broomed.
    I'll take a bottle of glacier water at 6,000' over a bottle of tequila in mexico any day

    WSSBC Life Member; PCRGC; LHC; BCWF

  5. #115
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    Feb 2009
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    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by porthunter View Post
    Just out of curiosity, I don't have much of an opinion on it personally but what is peoples opinion on the "Double Broomed" rule for hunting dall sheep in Alaska?

    For anyone who doesn't know, a ram is legal if both tips on his horns are broken/broomed.
    It's basically the same rule:

    "A ram with the tips of both horns broken, or broomed. A ram at least 8 years old as determined by counting annual horn rings and segments. ... If a ram's horns are not legal based on degree of curl or broken tips, you are responsible for counting at least 8 true annuli before attempting to take the ram."

  6. #116
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    Oct 2012
    Location
    Lower Mainland
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    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    It's basically the same rule:

    "A ram with the tips of both horns broken, or broomed. A ram at least 8 years old as determined by counting annual horn rings and segments. ... If a ram's horns are not legal based on degree of curl or broken tips, you are responsible for counting at least 8 true annuli before attempting to take the ram."
    I dont think it is. The rule of "double broomed" rams is not affected by age or annuli. If a ram has 2 broomed horns hes legal as per their law, regardless of visible annuli.
    Last edited by porthunter; 05-15-2019 at 07:00 PM.
    I'll take a bottle of glacier water at 6,000' over a bottle of tequila in mexico any day

    WSSBC Life Member; PCRGC; LHC; BCWF

  7. #117
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Peace Region
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    112

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    I attended a sheep hunting seminar at Backcountry in Fort St John a few years ago. Some great presentations by guides, biologists and others. On of the big take always for me was judging a legal sheep by counting the rings on the crown. Is that a bad practice? It seems to work well however based on many of these comments it sounds like it could easily result in an illegal ram. I still think there is room to interpret "evidenced by" but am now second guessing my understanding of this.

  8. #118
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
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    5

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by RJHunter View Post
    I attended a sheep hunting seminar at Backcountry in Fort St John a few years ago. Some great presentations by guides, biologists and others. On of the big take always for me was judging a legal sheep by counting the rings on the crown. Is that a bad practice? It seems to work well however based on many of these comments it sounds like it could easily result in an illegal ram. I still think there is room to interpret "evidenced by" but am now second guessing my understanding of this.
    "4 in the crown, knock it down" generally means the ram is 8 however you should still count every ring. If this ram had one tip then the rule would work. Even tho this ram is 8.5 clearly they decided to age it at 7. Feel bad for the kid.

  9. #119
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    691

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kddowds View Post
    "4 in the crown, knock it down" generally means the ram is 8 however you should still count every ring. If this ram had one tip then the rule would work. Even tho this ram is 8.5 clearly they decided to age it at 7. Feel bad for the kid.
    Can you explain what the the crown is?

  10. #120
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    5

    Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by whitlers View Post
    Can you explain what the the crown is?
    From the base of horn down to the eye and then 90 degrees straight back, if that ring is straight across or slanted upwards and you can count four rings or more above it then the sheep will be 8+. It's a cool trick and if you know how to use it it's accurate but it's always good to count them all! Hope that makes sense

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