Caribou recovery and effective methods to deal with wolves en masse?

[IronNoggin]

Rob,

I was quite specific in my response.

I happily restate it, the claim that the Alternative prey reduction "Theory" has been successfully proven is Bullshit!

Quite the opposite has been proven.

Alberta was the first jurisdiction to experiment with made in Europe theory, thanks to promotion from Mark Boyce.
It has yet to work. It has often resulted in Increased predation on the protected species.
The same thing happened in SW BC.

So again, Specifically, the theory of Alternative prey reduction not only has yet to be proven successful, it has been proven to result in Increased harm to protected species.

It is time to demand that biologists and politicians give up on using this concept, social licence be damned.

Hear Hear!

I am quite aware of the experiments WB notes.
And as a biologist, I STRONGLY concur with his assessment.
This is a ludicrous proposal, and should not have even been slightly entertained.

Rob - you note it may only work if ALL steps are adhered to.
This is BC.
That will NEVER happen.
Tossing the baby out with the bathwater is not what is called for at this juncture.
Nuking 50% plus of the wolves, a decent number of the cats, and reintroducing the girzzly hunt are what is required.
And that is what we should be working towards.
Period. Full Stop.

Nog

[Bugle M In]

Just remember hbc folks, "don't kill the messenger"!!!
Rob was only stating "how it works" and "what has to happen", to have such a policy.
I am pretty sure he is very aware that it isn't the case in BC.

[Wild one]

Well WB and Nog are on point with my train of thought

Like we are stating the theory of targeting alternative prey to decrease predation on another prey species has been attempted with poor results

Because of the way predators adapt to various prey you basically need collapse an ecosystem is where the flaw lies

Not a Bio but past projects I was involved in or provided info were predator related

[Wild one]

Just remember hbc folks, "don't kill the messenger"!!!
Rob was only stating "how it works" and "what has to happen", to have such a policy.
I am pretty sure he is very aware that it isn't the case in BC.

Its no disrespect to Rob

[Rob Chipman]

Wild One, WB & Nog

As they say on TV - pump the brakes there, Super-chief.

"So again, Specifically, the theory of Alternative prey reduction not only has yet to be proven successful, it has been proven to result in Increased harm to protected species. "

It worked with foxes in the Channel Islands right? Those are the Channel Islands in California, btw, not the ones between the UK and France. Obviously an easier application because they were exterminating pigs, not moose, but they couldn't just kill the predators (golden eagles) because more just came in.

Can we agree that some scientific methods work only when they're done properly, and when they aren't done properly they often don't work?

For example, if we started killing wolves but didn't kill enough of them, I think we'd all agree that the evidence demonstrates that the technique doesn't work because you haven't executed on it well enough. Would you then argue that killing wolves has been proven to not work? In fact, as you and I both know, there are instances where killing wolves has reduced predation, and other instances where it's increased predation.

When you ignore instances of removing alternate prey that were successful and focus on instances where it wasn't successful you're cherry picking. The real question is: why didn't it work in Alberta or SW BC, and why does the scientist think it will work in the recommended location?

The actual scientists working on caribou recovery here in BC have shown that they get the best result with both wolf killing and alternate prey killing. The data isn't as conclusive as I'd like, but it seems clear that doing both gives better results than doing only one.

That's two instances of it working. Not everything works everywhere all the time, but that's still two instances of it working.

"It is time to demand that biologists and politicians give up on using this concept, social licence be damned."

Fly at 'er. If it works and you get results I'll be the first to congratulate you. I'm curious, though - you had much luck lately demanding that politicians do what you tell them to do? If so, what's your secret. I know a bunch of pissed off salmon fishermen who would like to know how you do it.

"Rob - you note it may only work if ALL steps are adhered to."

I don't think I said that, actually. I think I said that scientists recommend pulling multiple levers when possible in order to get the best results. I didn't say "You *may* get results if you pull *all* levers".

The BC data actually shows that you don't *need* to pull all of them, but pulling more than one at a time works, and only pulling one tends to not work. Again, the data isn't as conclusive as I'd like, but the population increases are there.

"Nuking 50% plus of the wolves, a decent number of the cats, and reintroducing the girzzly hunt are what is required.
And that is what we should be working towards.
Period. Full Stop".

Maybe we should be working towards that. If you want me onside you'd have a bit of an idea of wolf, grizzly and cat populations so we knew we weren't wasting money, but you probably agree with that anyway. Point being, we don't know how many wolves we have because we don't have funding to count them, let alone kill them.

Funding is the #1 problem we face.

Replace the White Rock pier? It's going to happen. The cost? Almost half of what we spend on wildlife in this province.

Where will you get the funding to count wolves, let alone kill them? Are you spending money we don't even have yet?

Let's go a bit further with this. Nuke half the wolves? How about nuking half the sea lions? How about knocking off another chinook predator - the SRKW? You think that'll get any traction?

Kill a "decent" number of cats? What makes you think we have too many cats? Constant news stories of young cats coming into urban areas looking for new territory? Great. You run with that and I'll work with WDL arguing that you're a big meany. Anyone want to bet whose going to win?

Reintroduce the G-bear hunt? I'm not opposed. How do you propose we do that? Last I checked we're in BC. A guy I occasionally read recently said:

"This is BC.
That will NEVER happen."


I get your frustrations, boys, but who are you kidding?

We've got scientists here who are getting some results.

They say "Kill wolves because science" and you all agree.

They say "Kill moose because science" and you scream "Idiots!"

The you say "Just demand that politicians and bios do what we say regardless of how many other people say the exact opposite".

Who among us is in the position to demand anything and see it actually happen? If you've figured that out please share the secret sauce.


Like I said, if you want to fight anti-scieince anti-hunting pseudo-conservationists with opinion and emotion, go ahead. I don't think you'll be successful on any front.

If you want to join those groups and fight the scientists with them, go ahead.

If you want wildlife policy in BC to be determined by political pressure groups pursuing their emotional agendas, as we've seen occur recently, great.

Me? I'll support scientists who share their data and take flak from those people. The guys recommending killing wolves, maternal penning, habitat restoration *and* alternate prey reduction are the guys sharing that data and getting flak form all sides. I'm with them. They're getting results.

[Bugle M In]

The same goes for the EK elk situation.
Just killing wolves (and hopefully cats) is not going to fix the problem.
It is only "part" of the solution.
I don't see game coming back to the high country, and in part due to all the logging and habitat issues.
No winter range designations etc.

So yes, there has to be "multiple" things happening to fix the elk issue and as per this thread, caribou.

But the big problem we have talked about for years has been funding, and I wont be surprised if we some
more money someday soon, but I think the government is more than glad to make us "pay for it"
IT will show up in tag prices going up, and maybe some eco fees, and we will bare the brunt of that.

The BIGGEST problem that is see:
NO ONE IS LISTENING TO US.
(nor do they really care because in part, we have been "well behaved" for far too long)
Got to raise a little hell first.
That's the first step!

[Rob Chipman]

"NO ONE IS LISTENING TO US.
(nor do they really care because in part, we have been "well behaved" for far too long)
Got to raise a little hell first.
That's the first step! "

You're correct. All kidding aside, if saving caribou (or wildlife in general) was as important and supporting trans-gender people, stopping bullying or building a pedestrian foot path in the GVRD we'd see way more progress.

[Bugle M In]

I just had discussions with some that were part of the salmon closure rally in N.van.
I told them, no one is listening, and they are starting to understand it.
I think they are actually planning a "lawsuit" against the government, FYI.

I already gave them my ideas about what to do once the "nets" hit the river.
And they get that too.
(Although this issue is not just about one group being the issue, as that isn't the whole story by a long shot, but does show the "inequality" that has been created by our governments)
If the courts don't start to get it, than we have some real problems coming next.

[Wild one]

Your minds made up so be it. Yes you brought forward an example I personally would not use but yes under those conditions there was results. If invasive pig/fox success story on an island is good for you ok

I much prefer to acknowledge the failed results when this has been applied to ungulates here in Canada

Yes I get you want to support the scientist and yes they probably do believe what they are saying. But I have also been there to watch them realize they were wrong and something has been done wrong for years.

Remember this is not invasive pigs you’re dealing with either but instead native ungulates and ones also in decline here in BC. So consider what % of the ungulate( elk and deer would be a factor)population is except able loss in hopes to limit predation on caribou?

Myself I say 0% because of the lack of success this theory has had with ungulates in Canada

[Foxton Gundogs]

Had this emailed to me Re, Cariboo Recovery. Apparently wolves are worth more than moose to the Gov't. and their Greeny friends. A hunting FB group is urging their members put in for the cow draws and eat their tags.

The Person that presented the info the the hunting public on social media was a Chad Dueck

Here is his post

Government Caribou meeting Tonight in Cranbrook
Our useless government has already opened up almost 50 moose cow & calf leh hunting draws in the Revelstoke
Caribou area.
They want to kill off all the moose and elk population in and around the caribou.
They think that if all the elk and moose are killed off the grizzlies and wolves won't eat the caribou!
Let's kill off ungulates instead of the problem predators.
Our wildlife management is non existent.
They have no backbone to remove predators, as it's to political.
So the government has already made their decision, so its not a public consultation.