Quote Originally Posted by labguy View Post

A person doesn't need a "tool" to be abusive. Hands, feet and even a persons voice can cause an animal inordinate distress.
Exactly. Have seen a well known Trainer kick a dog quite forcefully and years back at a Retriever Specialty a guy booted a dog's crate pretty hard to stop it from barking. When I looked a bit aghast he said "These dogs are my tools and I treat them like tools."
Re the E Collar, we've resorted to one on our latest Toller. I'm not the best trainer around, some would say I'm a worse trainer than I am a goalie but so far the E collar has worked out well. I'm getting way too old to climb us a freekin' mountain side to leash her up, hasn't happened since we started the E collar training.