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Thread: Force Fetching (Trained Retrieve)

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
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    952

    Re: Force Fetching (Trained Retrieve)

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxton Gundogs View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^GOOD POST^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    You don't get much softer dog than a Spaniel. All mine are "force" fetched and collar conditioned. Not one has suffered mentally or physically for the process and in fact get excited when the collar comes out. It means training or hunting= FUN!!
    I completely agree with this. I was very careful about collar conditioning. And, didn't beat her up to FF. She loves it.

  2. #12
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    Jun 2010
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    VI
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    Re: Force Fetching (Trained Retrieve)

    Quote Originally Posted by recondo View Post
    For starters , I don’t really appreciate the belittling of other dog people,if they don’t agree with you, even though you don’t know nothing about them. They amount of posts here ,has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge or experience of a certain subject. On the contrary, it probably shows that that particular person is doing the things , so many just write about. I , for one rather hunt or work with my dogs than get lectured by someone like you.
    Also the person , who asked about the training of his Lab, did not want to compete in high end competition, but wanted a reliable hunting dog. Also, a dog which gets positive reenforcement is a more reliable dog,once the e-collar comes off than one that gets forced to do something. Barely ever do I see gun dogs without e collars on. Funny that,since e collars are illegal in most European countries.
    Perhaps a good read for someone who seems to know everything http://fetchmasters.com/a-critical-l...rced-fetching/
    Because something was done for centuries, doesn’t mean there isn’t more human ways to train a dog,out there.My dogs are partners and not tools. I have been around gun dogs ,competitively, in the old country and in the new for 40 some years and I fail to see where I am ignorant to see how things are done here or there.
    A dog that is FF will be a more reliable 100% of the time more then a dog that is not. I mean sure, if we are just talking about picking up ducks in the decoys inside 40 yards ole scoobie doo next door can give a FF a dog a good run for his money. But those sailers over 200 yards that require a blind retrieve when its minus 5 and the dog is dead tired and cold ill bet ole scoobie aint going to get that one!

    I imagine you picture dogs that have been force fetched just hating their lives. Just poor souls, out there everyday being forced to retrieve. Terrible attitudes just cowering in fear. How close am I?

    And that is why, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. ( and the fact you linked an article that compares using a clicker as potentially a better training tool the FF LOL)

    Lorne
    Last edited by lorneparker1; 03-28-2019 at 09:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bear Brawler View Post
    Just lob a couple loaded mouse traps at em like you're playing horse shoes. More humane than bouncing darts off them.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    875

    Re: Force Fetching (Trained Retrieve)

    To be fair, I think it is important to be open to learning new methods of advancing our abilities as trainers.

    One of my favorite quotes:

    "If I /you /we can't continue to advance our training methods that focus on making training easier to learn / less painful for the dogs, we have no right to be training them." ( Alec Sparks)

    On the other hand, what may seem like a more humane and gentle approach could be confusing to the dog causing undue stress and anxiety. In many cases this is far worse than a simple but fair, well timed correction.

    These are dogs, not people. They operate on a different level than us. They understand black and white, yes and no, right and wrong. They do not do well trying to operate in our greyish world and it's not fair to expect them to.

    The more I train the more I realize how much there still is to learn.
    "Guns kill people like spoons made Rosie O'Donel fat"

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    823

    Re: Force Fetching (Trained Retrieve)

    Labguy touches on some good points, namely that we need to keep an open mind to other methods of achieving the same results.
    I have also used the 'trained retrieve' method with numerous dogs. With my latest one however, I am playing with motivation-based techniques (Leerburg) and it has gone very well so far. We are not finished yet so we will see.
    A couple of facebook links for you. This guys video section is very interesting. He has told me he uses markers (clicker) and treats:
    https://www.facebook.com/dennispanthenhundetraining/

    Another is of David Buss, again all motivation-based:
    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...17422401869310
    The point is, it is possible to train the retrieve and others a better way. It can be hard to change old habits, but in the end we become more rounded trainers. Give it a try.

  5. #15
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    Feb 2011
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    Re: Force Fetching (Trained Retrieve)

    I start force training my pups as soon as they come home. Lab Guy and I had a conversation on this. I use the puppy's natural tendency to chew. Short description I use a clean leather glove and give the puppy a couple of fingers to "chew" as soon as they clamp down on my fingers I put a thumb on the lower jaw and give the command fetch/hold, as soon as they stop trying to chew I give the hold command again and then give the 'give' command and remove my fingers. I do this 3 or 4 times a day during our regular play times. I have found that by doing this when it comes time to start serious training they are 3/4 force trained and the rest is simply icing on the cake. I have done this for years and have never had it fail to give the pups a huge head start when it comes to serious force fetch training
    Last edited by Foxton Gundogs; 03-29-2019 at 12:56 PM.
    "BORN TO HUNT"
    Foxton's Cuervo Gold "KEELA" Oct. 2004-June 2017. Always in my blind and my heart.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    1,247

    Re: Force Fetching (Trained Retrieve)

    Quote Originally Posted by lorneparker1 View Post
    A dog that is FF will be a more reliable 100% of the time more then a dog that is not. I mean sure, if we are just talking about picking up ducks in the decoys inside 40 yards ole scoobie doo next door can give a FF a dog a good run for his money. But those sailers over 200 yards that require a blind retrieve when its minus 5 and the dog is dead tired and cold ill bet ole scoobie aint going to get that one!
    Maybe it doesn't even have to be that far?? Quite often I'll take my griff for a romp in the large dog park that we have down here in Surrey. If I go early enough I usually have the park to myself so I'll often pack a 3" orange rubber bumper with a throwing rope on the end of it with me and do random retrieves with her.

    This morning she was busy sniffing around about 30 yards away on one side of the path. I threw the bumper about 30 yards away on the other side of the path for a blind retrieve. She definitely didn't see the throw. It wasn't a great throw because it got tangled up in a tree about 4 1/2 - 5' off the ground. LOL

    I called the dog over and sent her in the direction of the bumper thinking this is going to be tough because I didn't think there was any chance of her spotting it what with her nose to the ground. She spent several minutes in the area without finding it. When she was about ten yards away from it she finally looked at me for help. I pointed in the direction of the bumper, telling her "Over!"

    She went towards the tree and started circling it. I could tell she was scenting it even though it wasn't on the ground. I don't scent the bumpers,,,, but it obviously has some kind of odour about it. After she circled the tree 3 times she started lifting her nose to the air which kind of surprised me and eventually she spotted the bumper in the branches of the tree. She started jumping for it and was able to grab or nip at the end of it a few times, but she'd let go. It was really hung up in there.

    Sure wish I had it on video because she finally got a good hold of it and was basically hanging off the ground as she tugged on it. The branch eventually broke. She brought the bumper back with part of the branch that the rope had wrapped around. I can't say for certain that she stuck with the retrieve because she had been FF'd but she certainly did NOT lose her focus on what might be considered a difficult blind retrieve. She didn't wouldn't give up on it at all.
    Last edited by mastercaster; 03-29-2019 at 10:21 AM.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
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    239

    Re: Force Fetching (Trained Retrieve)

    Believe me,I have been around when FF was all the rage,many different versions of it,the gentler to the harsh one.My first DD I had out of our breeding was not FF and a fellow trainer and breeder of DDs and Golden Retrievers showed me when I was 14 years old that despite all the naysayers you can train a DD to go to a VGP level without FF.He probably tested 40 or more dogs through VGP level without a problem.
    He was an avid Duck hunter and his dogs had no problem doing long retrieves due to passion and drive.
    There is a lot of dogs that despite FF will not pass a HZP level test (dogs in the 12-22months of age),failure rate probably 40%.
    There is also dogs around despite being trained by Professional Trainers that wash out going through FF but regain confidence through a more motivational approach.
    Last but not least,in the working dog world there will be a time when you have to correct your dog for an incorrect behaviour,by "force"or by changing the approach to make it easier to grasp the task.

    Rainer

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    875

    Re: Force Fetching (Trained Retrieve)

    **




    Well Rainer, our time of "almost agreeing" on something didn't last very long. My responses are in bold.



    Quote Originally Posted by jagen mit DDrs View Post
    Believe me,I have been around when FF was all the rage,many different versions of it,the gentler to the harsh one.My first DD I had out of our breeding was not FF and a fellow trainer and breeder of DDs and Golden Retrievers showed me when I was 14 years old that despite all the naysayers you can train a DD to go to a VGP level without FF.He probably tested 40 or more dogs through VGP level without a problem. As I alluded to earlier in this conversation, this is not Europe......this is North America........the standards are different here and the expectations of a dogs abilities are not even close to what's accepted as "highest level" in Europe. In this country a dog is expected to mark (remember)and retrieve 3 or 4 shot birds at ranges of 3 to 5 hundred meters with no gun to reference the area of the fall over rough terrain and reed choked water, in a manner that disturbed the least amount of cover (read a straight line). This test can take up to 30 minutes because of the distance, water and terrain. Failure to recover all the birds, relying solely on its memory, in an efficient and prompt manner, results in elimination.

    They are also expected to handle to an unknown destination (again up to 500 meters and beyond) over the same rough terrain, stop on every whistle, take precision casts and stay within a 10 meter corridor or less to a destination only his handler knows. Failure to complete any of the above standards results in elimination.


    He was an avid Duck hunter and his dogs had no problem doing long retrieves due to passion and drive.
    There is a lot of dogs that despite FF will not pass a HZP level test (dogs in the 12-22months of age),failure rate probably 40%. Again the European idea of a "long retrieve" isn't the same here. A 3 or 400 meter retrieve, with multiple water entries and exits, is not unusual for a dog under 2 years of age on this continent.


    There is also dogs around despite being trained by Professional Trainers that wash out going through FF but regain confidence through a more motivational approach. If a dog is washed out by a pro trainer because of FF he's a piss poor Pro.....you know this......All pros are not created equal. This is a very poor argument against FF that you are presenting here and I think you know this to.


    Last but not least,in the working dog world there will be a time when you have to correct your dog for an incorrect behaviour,by "force"or by changing the approach to make it easier to grasp the task. Well, I guess we can "almost agree" on this.

    Rainer
    .

    The European game and the North American game cannot reasonably be compared because they are so different. You and recondo have obviously not been exposed to the "highest levels" on this continent so commenting on them, without adequate knowlege or experience, doesn't hold much credibility.

    Ill repeat this once more "It is virtually impossible to train one of these dogs to the "highest level", on this continent, without a thorough and complete FF program." Period

    All the above comments reference a standard most people don't give a rats ass about. If you simply want a dog to retrieve a duck that it sees plop dead in a puddle or field then FF might not be necessary.......but then you could probably train a reasonably intelligent house cat to accomplish the same thing......as long as it was Force Fetched.
    "Guns kill people like spoons made Rosie O'Donel fat"

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    Re: Force Fetching (Trained Retrieve)

    After over 55 yrs as a serious dog trainer of retriever and flushing breeds I can honestly say that I would let Lab Guy train one of my dogs any time. I have owned a lab he started and she is an awesome retriever. He is right on track with his musings.
    "BORN TO HUNT"
    Foxton's Cuervo Gold "KEELA" Oct. 2004-June 2017. Always in my blind and my heart.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    239

    Re: Force Fetching (Trained Retrieve)

    @Labguy,
    In reference to the age of a dog in HZP,the dog also has to point,retrieve,do several 300m land retrieves and track fur and feather.The emphasis is on being a Hunting dog not a Sportdog.Although at any retrieve you can only give one command,period another command given and the dog fails.Again those a Breedtests and not Specialized Trials.
    You are basing everything on a Top Trial which has not much to do with the average hunter and his dog.Like saying I want to get fit and you give me a workout plan of an Olympian.
    Don't get me wrong.....I don't say FF doesnt work...in the hands of people who know what they are doing but sorry to say,there is alot of people,professional and otherwise,that should keep their hands away from FF.
    Rainer

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