Force Fetching (Trained Retrieve)

[labguy]

Here's a new thread to discuss this topic and move it away from that other thread.

This particular post below annoys the hell out of me: Probably shouldn't bother with such an uninformed opinion but my comments are in bold.

1) You are wrong when you think that you can’t compete at the highest levels without FF....you force it. I've been in the competative Retriever game for over 20 years. I've trained with and competed against the best Retrievers in North America. I do not know of any successful dog ( meaning a dog who can place in one of these events) during this time that has not been FF,d or has been trained with positive reward based training only. Most of us use a combination of all the above.........what's your basis for saying I'm wrong?


2) There is nothing humane about FF, just as the name implies.....you force . Prove it. I challenge you to back up this statement . You are obviously not up to speed on how this procedure is now done.

Look up Bill Hillman for starters...you just might learn something on the more modern approach.


3) I tire of North Americans , who want quick results, with no time involvement. Prove it. To develop a fully trained competative Retriever usually takes a minimum of 4 to 5 years. Training occurs almost every day......how does this constitute no time involvement??????


4) I don’t think Rainer has to educate himself, when it comes to training hunting dogs and it is very ignorant of you to say something like that, when you don’t know the background of the individual. He probably,actually most likely, trained more dogs ,successfully without FF. I have no reason to doubt Rainers training abilities. My issue is with broad based generalizations based on very limited knowledge of the North America competative Retriever game and what is involved with it.

Of course you can train a dog successfully without FF but his idea of successful and mine are obviously quite different.

Labguy, I say to you. A mind ,once stretched, will never regain its original dimension. You have a total of 5 posts on this site. WTF do you know about this subject anyway. My bet is almost nothing. Let me guess...your information if formed on hearsay and you have almost no real world experience training dogs beyond a very rudimentary level....

recondo....When you can offer something of value on this subject.......based on knowlege and experience instead of just spouting off on a subject you obviously know SFA about.......then please join in. In the meantime, if your at all interested, you just might learn a thing or two by doing more reading and less posting.......

I can respect Rainers input because he does have some real world experience.......your opinion however......not as much.

[jagen mit DDrs]

@Labguy
This wasn't an intent to be a "piss in your cornflakes"debate!For" young handlers" that are trying to get their Hunting pooches to retrieve there is other methods out there besides FF.
Nobody needs to get upset!
Rainer

[labguy]

@Labguy
This wasn't an intent to be a "piss in your cornflakes"debate!For" young handlers" that are trying to get their Hunting pooches to retrieve there is other methods out there besides FF.
Nobody needs to get upset!
Rainer

I agree completely. For someone simply interested in a good hunting companion there other routes to take. There has been many a fine hunting dog that never went through the FF program.

I stand by my comments that the highest levels of competative retrieving are almost impossible to reach without some form of compulsion based training. I have yet to see or hear of one thats made the grade without it. There probably is one or two out there but they are as rare as an honorable lawyer.

I do appreciate and admire a positive only program in certain instances and for some specific training objectives.

[jagen mit DDrs]

With the top dogs in any discipline you also have a way more "driven"dog that would be out of control for the "average"handler.The average handler also doesn"t spend near enough time with their dogs in comparison with top trial trainers.
Glad to see that we almost agree!!

Rainer

[recondo]

For starters , I don’t really appreciate the belittling of other dog people,if they don’t agree with you, even though you don’t know nothing about them. They amount of posts here ,has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge or experience of a certain subject. On the contrary, it probably shows that that particular person is doing the things , so many just write about. I , for one rather hunt or work with my dogs than get lectured by someone like you.
Also the person , who asked about the training of his Lab, did not want to compete in high end competition, but wanted a reliable hunting dog. Also, a dog which gets positive reenforcement is a more reliable dog,once the e-collar comes off than one that gets forced to do something. Barely ever do I see gun dogs without e collars on. Funny that,since e collars are illegal in most European countries.
Perhaps a good read for someone who seems to know everything http://fetchmasters.com/a-critical-l...rced-fetching/
Because something was done for centuries, doesn’t mean there isn’t more human ways to train a dog,out there.My dogs are partners and not tools. I have been around gun dogs ,competitively, in the old country and in the new for 40 some years and I fail to see where I am ignorant to see how things are done here or there.

[lorneparker1]

For starters , I don’t really appreciate the belittling of other dog people,if they don’t agree with you, even though you don’t know nothing about them. They amount of posts here ,has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge or experience of a certain subject. On the contrary, it probably shows that that particular person is doing the things , so many just write about. I , for one rather hunt or work with my dogs than get lectured by someone like you.
Also the person , who asked about the training of his Lab, did not want to compete in high end competition, but wanted a reliable hunting dog. Also, a dog which gets positive reenforcement is a more reliable dog,once the e-collar comes off than one that gets forced to do something. Barely ever do I see gun dogs without e collars on. Funny that,since e collars are illegal in most European countries.
Perhaps a good read for someone who seems to know everything http://fetchmasters.com/a-critical-l...rced-fetching/
Because something was done for centuries, doesn’t mean there isn’t more human ways to train a dog,out there.My dogs are partners and not tools. I have been around gun dogs ,competitively, in the old country and in the new for 40 some years and I fail to see where I am ignorant to see how things are done here or there.

A dog that is FF will be a more reliable 100% of the time more then a dog that is not. I mean sure, if we are just talking about picking up ducks in the decoys inside 40 yards ole scoobie doo next door can give a FF a dog a good run for his money. But those sailers over 200 yards that require a blind retrieve when its minus 5 and the dog is dead tired and cold ill bet ole scoobie aint going to get that one!

I imagine you picture dogs that have been force fetched just hating their lives. Just poor souls, out there everyday being forced to retrieve. Terrible attitudes just cowering in fear. How close am I?

And that is why, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. ( and the fact you linked an article that compares using a clicker as potentially a better training tool the FF LOL)

Lorne

[labguy]

To be fair, I think it is important to be open to learning new methods of advancing our abilities as trainers.

One of my favorite quotes:

"If I /you /we can't continue to advance our training methods that focus on making training easier to learn / less painful for the dogs, we have no right to be training them." ( Alec Sparks)

On the other hand, what may seem like a more humane and gentle approach could be confusing to the dog causing undue stress and anxiety. In many cases this is far worse than a simple but fair, well timed correction.

These are dogs, not people. They operate on a different level than us. They understand black and white, yes and no, right and wrong. They do not do well trying to operate in our greyish world and it's not fair to expect them to.

The more I train the more I realize how much there still is to learn.

[huntingfamily]

Labguy touches on some good points, namely that we need to keep an open mind to other methods of achieving the same results.
I have also used the 'trained retrieve' method with numerous dogs. With my latest one however, I am playing with motivation-based techniques (Leerburg) and it has gone very well so far. We are not finished yet so we will see.
A couple of facebook links for you. This guys video section is very interesting. He has told me he uses markers (clicker) and treats:
https://www.facebook.com/dennispanthenhundetraining/

Another is of David Buss, again all motivation-based:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...17422401869310
The point is, it is possible to train the retrieve and others a better way. It can be hard to change old habits, but in the end we become more rounded trainers. Give it a try.

[mastercaster]

A dog that is FF will be a more reliable 100% of the time more then a dog that is not. I mean sure, if we are just talking about picking up ducks in the decoys inside 40 yards ole scoobie doo next door can give a FF a dog a good run for his money. But those sailers over 200 yards that require a blind retrieve when its minus 5 and the dog is dead tired and cold ill bet ole scoobie aint going to get that one!

Maybe it doesn't even have to be that far?? Quite often I'll take my griff for a romp in the large dog park that we have down here in Surrey. If I go early enough I usually have the park to myself so I'll often pack a 3" orange rubber bumper with a throwing rope on the end of it with me and do random retrieves with her.

This morning she was busy sniffing around about 30 yards away on one side of the path. I threw the bumper about 30 yards away on the other side of the path for a blind retrieve. She definitely didn't see the throw. It wasn't a great throw because it got tangled up in a tree about 4 1/2 - 5' off the ground. LOL

I called the dog over and sent her in the direction of the bumper thinking this is going to be tough because I didn't think there was any chance of her spotting it what with her nose to the ground. She spent several minutes in the area without finding it. When she was about ten yards away from it she finally looked at me for help. I pointed in the direction of the bumper, telling her "Over!"

She went towards the tree and started circling it. I could tell she was scenting it even though it wasn't on the ground. I don't scent the bumpers,,,, but it obviously has some kind of odour about it. After she circled the tree 3 times she started lifting her nose to the air which kind of surprised me and eventually she spotted the bumper in the branches of the tree. She started jumping for it and was able to grab or nip at the end of it a few times, but she'd let go. It was really hung up in there.

Sure wish I had it on video because she finally got a good hold of it and was basically hanging off the ground as she tugged on it. The branch eventually broke. She brought the bumper back with part of the branch that the rope had wrapped around. I can't say for certain that she stuck with the retrieve because she had been FF'd but she certainly did NOT lose her focus on what might be considered a difficult blind retrieve. She didn't wouldn't give up on it at all.

[jagen mit DDrs]

Believe me,I have been around when FF was all the rage,many different versions of it,the gentler to the harsh one.My first DD I had out of our breeding was not FF and a fellow trainer and breeder of DDs and Golden Retrievers showed me when I was 14 years old that despite all the naysayers you can train a DD to go to a VGP level without FF.He probably tested 40 or more dogs through VGP level without a problem.
He was an avid Duck hunter and his dogs had no problem doing long retrieves due to passion and drive.
There is a lot of dogs that despite FF will not pass a HZP level test (dogs in the 12-22months of age),failure rate probably 40%.
There is also dogs around despite being trained by Professional Trainers that wash out going through FF but regain confidence through a more motivational approach.
Last but not least,in the working dog world there will be a time when you have to correct your dog for an incorrect behaviour,by "force"or by changing the approach to make it easier to grasp the task.

Rainer