Force Fetching (Trained Retrieve)

[labguy]

Here's a new thread to discuss this topic and move it away from that other thread.

This particular post below annoys the hell out of me: Probably shouldn't bother with such an uninformed opinion but my comments are in bold.

1) You are wrong when you think that you can’t compete at the highest levels without FF....you force it. I've been in the competative Retriever game for over 20 years. I've trained with and competed against the best Retrievers in North America. I do not know of any successful dog ( meaning a dog who can place in one of these events) during this time that has not been FF,d or has been trained with positive reward based training only. Most of us use a combination of all the above.........what's your basis for saying I'm wrong?


2) There is nothing humane about FF, just as the name implies.....you force . Prove it. I challenge you to back up this statement . You are obviously not up to speed on how this procedure is now done.

Look up Bill Hillman for starters...you just might learn something on the more modern approach.


3) I tire of North Americans , who want quick results, with no time involvement. Prove it. To develop a fully trained competative Retriever usually takes a minimum of 4 to 5 years. Training occurs almost every day......how does this constitute no time involvement??????


4) I don’t think Rainer has to educate himself, when it comes to training hunting dogs and it is very ignorant of you to say something like that, when you don’t know the background of the individual. He probably,actually most likely, trained more dogs ,successfully without FF. I have no reason to doubt Rainers training abilities. My issue is with broad based generalizations based on very limited knowledge of the North America competative Retriever game and what is involved with it.

Of course you can train a dog successfully without FF but his idea of successful and mine are obviously quite different.

Labguy, I say to you. A mind ,once stretched, will never regain its original dimension. You have a total of 5 posts on this site. WTF do you know about this subject anyway. My bet is almost nothing. Let me guess...your information if formed on hearsay and you have almost no real world experience training dogs beyond a very rudimentary level....

recondo....When you can offer something of value on this subject.......based on knowlege and experience instead of just spouting off on a subject you obviously know SFA about.......then please join in. In the meantime, if your at all interested, you just might learn a thing or two by doing more reading and less posting.......

I can respect Rainers input because he does have some real world experience.......your opinion however......not as much.

[jagen mit DDrs]

@Labguy
This wasn't an intent to be a "piss in your cornflakes"debate!For" young handlers" that are trying to get their Hunting pooches to retrieve there is other methods out there besides FF.
Nobody needs to get upset!
Rainer

[labguy]

@Labguy
This wasn't an intent to be a "piss in your cornflakes"debate!For" young handlers" that are trying to get their Hunting pooches to retrieve there is other methods out there besides FF.
Nobody needs to get upset!
Rainer

I agree completely. For someone simply interested in a good hunting companion there other routes to take. There has been many a fine hunting dog that never went through the FF program.

I stand by my comments that the highest levels of competative retrieving are almost impossible to reach without some form of compulsion based training. I have yet to see or hear of one thats made the grade without it. There probably is one or two out there but they are as rare as an honorable lawyer.

I do appreciate and admire a positive only program in certain instances and for some specific training objectives.

[jagen mit DDrs]

With the top dogs in any discipline you also have a way more "driven"dog that would be out of control for the "average"handler.The average handler also doesn"t spend near enough time with their dogs in comparison with top trial trainers.
Glad to see that we almost agree!!

Rainer

[recondo]

For starters , I don’t really appreciate the belittling of other dog people,if they don’t agree with you, even though you don’t know nothing about them. They amount of posts here ,has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge or experience of a certain subject. On the contrary, it probably shows that that particular person is doing the things , so many just write about. I , for one rather hunt or work with my dogs than get lectured by someone like you.
Also the person , who asked about the training of his Lab, did not want to compete in high end competition, but wanted a reliable hunting dog. Also, a dog which gets positive reenforcement is a more reliable dog,once the e-collar comes off than one that gets forced to do something. Barely ever do I see gun dogs without e collars on. Funny that,since e collars are illegal in most European countries.
Perhaps a good read for someone who seems to know everything http://fetchmasters.com/a-critical-l...rced-fetching/
Because something was done for centuries, doesn’t mean there isn’t more human ways to train a dog,out there.My dogs are partners and not tools. I have been around gun dogs ,competitively, in the old country and in the new for 40 some years and I fail to see where I am ignorant to see how things are done here or there.

[Foxton Gundogs]

Here's a new thread to discuss this topic and move it away from that other thread.

This particular post below annoys the hell out of me: Probably shouldn't bother with such an uninformed opinion but my comments are in bold.




recondo....When you can offer something of value on this subject.......based on knowlege and experience instead of just spouting off on a subject you obviously know SFA about.......then please join in. In the meantime, if your at all interested, you just might learn a thing or two by doing more reading and less posting.......

I can respect Rainers input because he does have some real world experience.......your opinion however......not as much.

Beat me to it LG, reading the post you quoted The only value I can see in it is for something for novices not to listen to and those of us with some experience to shake their heads and laugh at. Modern day force fetching is neither inhumane or is it unnecessary when producing a quality retriever either as a gundog or trial competitor(or both). You want to know something about training dogs listen to Lab Guy, after over 60 years of training dogs I learn something new every time he and I speak which is not to infrequently but then what would either him or me know.

[jagen mit DDrs]

Lets clarify something here;Modern retrieve training has nothing to do with the FF training of the old days,controlled retrieving or whatever it is called nowadays is different.The reason people get their hackles up is because FF is associated with a lot of un -pleasantries of the past.

[jlirot]

I'm curious about this 'new style' FF'ing. I put my dog on a table and forced her to pick stuff up. I did the ear pinch but probably wouldn't have needed to. That being said - my e-collar is my favorite tool.

[mastercaster]

I'm curious about this 'new style' FF'ing. I put my dog on a table and forced her to pick stuff up. I did the ear pinch but probably wouldn't have needed to. That being said - my e-collar is my favorite tool.

In the wrong hands using your own hand or an e-collar to force a dog to do something that causes more discomfort than necessary could easily be considered inhumane by a lot of people. The thing is neither of these needs to be painful. That is why dog owners need to learn right away that an e collar is only used to reinforce what the dog already knows and only at a level that registers just high enough to alert the dog that he needs to stop what it's doing and comply to the command it was given and already knows to stop the stimulation. Usually just a nick will suffice.

With the early part of the FF process the ear pinch should be uncomfortable for the dog but not painful. The dog learns quickly how to make the discomfort disappear by grabbing the paint roller, PVC tubing, rubber dummy or what ever else you want him to take into his mouth as quickly as possible. It's really not that much of a squeeze. People have mentioned that the pressure applied is such that their 5 year old could handle it.

I kept hearing about how soft griffs were when I got my pup but she didn't have any issues, physically or emotionally with the process. I'm on two different WPG hunting sites now and I'd say 90% of them have FF their so called softer dogs. When I did the FF process I used what I thought were the best parts of the DVD sets: Evan Graham's Smartfetch (works mostly with retrievers) and Jon Hann's Perfect Retrieve (works primarily with versatile dogs). Both are excellent in explaining and showing you the steps of what to do.

I also used a lot of positive reinforcement throughout the steps because my dog is a foodie. As Labguy mentioned, it's not all about applying pressure and more pressure to get the desired result. It can be a combination of stuff and what works for one dog may not work for another so you need to be able to read your dog.

I know one thing,,,,, I've talked to dozens of guys over the last couple of years who used the process and not one of them has ever told me that they regretted doing it. And not that I asked them, but they pretty much all said that the bond between them and their dog was made stronger after they completed FF.

[Foxton Gundogs]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^GOOD POST^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You don't get much softer dog than a Spaniel. All mine are "force" fetched and collar conditioned. Not one has suffered mentally or physically for the process and in fact get excited when the collar comes out. It means training or hunting= FUN!!