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Thread: Mule deer study in the Okanagan

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    In the bush near a lake
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    7,198

    Re: Mule deer study in the Okanagan

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    Not that I want to take away from the thinking here, as I do believe younger bucks do group up with does "much sooner"
    Sadly, this is all I saw in Novemer as well, on a couple of trips, fyi (4 separate 2pt's, all with atleast 6 does in each group)

    BUT.....
    I thought with the 1MD LIMIT this past season being introduced, that I would see "LESS HUNTERS"..NOPE!!!
    I actually saw more hunters during the Novemer/Dec 4 point season, especially the November long weekend.

    What I am say is, some who may have taken 2 bucks in previous seasons, 1 being a meat buck I suspect, and then
    the other to be a big boy attempt, have made a decision to "not hunt meat bucks"....

    It would be very interesting to see how many "less" younger bucks were taken who are not 4 points are harvested in the
    next few years "due to the 1 MD limit Change"!
    I am betting due to this new limit, less young bucks will be taken.
    We may "not need to shorten" that any buck season!!

    I have no clue what kind of stats are out there, as to MD harvest, and how many are taken that are not 4 point as
    compared to 4 pt in a season.
    Maybe they don't exist???

    I think the 1 MD change has already changed some hunters thinking and is changing what age bucks are taken because of it.
    I bet you there is going to be a decline in the amount of any bucks harvested, as some hunters will take more chances looking for the big one!

    I think people...hunters need to realize that we just had a significant regulation change!!!
    Does anyone expect that in 1 season of that change there is going to be dramatic changes to what you see out in the woods??!!
    Give it some time folks.

    More important right now is to figure out what is happening to the "offspring".
    Why are they not there by "next season" after this season has ended???
    FIX that, and then you will see a difference out there for the better!
    I would agree with this ^^^

    It will take time to see results from the change but they should be positive for population and hunting quality in the long run. I am a believer in the theory buck to doe ratios have an impact on fawn health but steps are taken to improve ratios

    Fawn survival rate and factors involved are something I hope comes out in this study and I think we all expect predators are a factor
    Last edited by Wild one; 03-05-2019 at 02:52 PM.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
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    Penticton
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    1,526

    Re: Mule deer study in the Okanagan

    It is scientifically proven that roads cause a significant behavioural change in wild animals and they make it far easier for all predators regardless of how many legs they have to be successful. Check out the road density in the province. Do you think it was always that way?

    Winter range is critical to ungulates. Where did it all go?

    Lack of fire on the landscape. It wasn't always that way...

    These three things are in my opinion, some of the more important issues for our wildlife problems in the province. They are all caused by people, period.
    We cannot change what has happened in the past, but we can learn from it and change how we impact the landscape moving forward.
    WSSBC Monarch Silver Member
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    The mountains are calling and I must go - John Muir

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    8,515

    Re: Mule deer study in the Okanagan

    I do have a thought/suggestion that might work/help (you be the judge)
    It's obvious there is a lot of "finger pointing" going on even between hunters as to issue, whether it be Predator/Habitat/Land Usage/Hunter Success, and it is creating a big divide between us, and that is not going to help to go forward, especially when hunting as a Tradition is on the line more and more everyday.

    So, what could help!!??
    I am not a big fan of the hunter harvest questionnaire, not because i don't want to fill it out, but because it is too vague.
    Yes, it will tell you how many days one spends in the field, and where and the % of success, and male or female, but that's it.

    So, why don't we have a "Mandatory Tooth Inspection for Any Harvested Species"??
    Think about it.
    If successful, we can download the pdf with the pertanent questions.
    Where, When, even how (bow/rifle), Days, Sex and Antler Points.
    A tooth will tell us what we are "actually harvesting".
    Just because a buck is 4 pt, is he 4 years old, or 10 years old??
    Especially females, are they young, 11/2 year old or 10 years old?

    This can tell us a lot.
    It can tell us what age of animals are really being harvested on average.
    We can see by point size what hunters are targeting.
    Just because someone took a buck in Oct, doesn't tell you his point size, let alone if he is young or old.
    Same goes for females, are most of them young or are we harvesting old ones who have a lot of survival experience.
    Heck, we could even maybe tell if some areas are holding males that have a defective gene that never reach 4 pt (deer) or
    6pt (elk) status.

    We cant tell from our current questionnaire any of these things.
    It will never tell us how these species are mainly meeting their demise, but we can help find out what we as hunters
    are harvesting rather than speculating!

    There is a few issues with this.
    The FN don't even tell us now what they harvest let alone get them to enter into a compulsory tooth inspection, but wouldn't it be nice if they would.

    Secondly, such a program, with teeth from all species harvested in BC would cost a lot of money.
    But there would be some great info for Bio's to use which in the end would benefit all of us, imo.

    Might help put some arguments to rest once and for all??

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
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    region 9
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    11,528

    Re: Mule deer study in the Okanagan

    I would think the biggest danger to mule deer numbers in reg 8 is the continuation of development on winter range.....where I hang in central reg 8, numbers I see are good, from my observations anyway..

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    3,898

    Re: Mule deer study in the Okanagan

    Bugle M In

    It's worthless data for the most part if numbers keep trending downward.


    I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards and forums. - F L Wright


    Try and be kind to everyone but fear no one. - Ourea


  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    8,515

    Re: Mule deer study in the Okanagan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ourea View Post
    Bugle M In

    It's worthless data for the most part if numbers keep trending downward.
    Yes, I know and you are correct, we need to find out what is causing the actual decline...fully agree.
    I was just trying to put to rest the division as to if issues are hunters or other.
    Tooth inspection might aid in the end, especially for hunters know what other hunters are "actually doing"!
    To get rid of this speculation on "oh, we should close this, or we should introduce this reg change etc"
    Lets face it FisherDude gets bashed for some of the Stats.
    Reason being, the stats are a bit vague.
    Not his fault, but again, shows hunters bashing hunters.
    This would help the "hunting issues" and what changes might be needed.

    The major declines are most certainly outside factors....so I am with you!!

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    3,898

    Re: Mule deer study in the Okanagan

    I've mentioned this on my Whitetail thread.......
    if you can't answer 'who, what, why, where and when you will have a hard time consistently killing better animals.

    This project is going to answer a lot of questions replacing educated guesses with quantified data.
    Better decision making will result.

    Where do these captured MD go after leaving their winter range?
    How far do they travel?
    What are the travel routes, do they avoid certain roadways etc?
    What is causing the high mortality specific to each fatality.
    When do most of the fatalities happen?
    When exactly do they move the most?

    Pretty exciting when you think about it.
    Last edited by Ourea; 03-05-2019 at 04:13 PM.


    I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards and forums. - F L Wright


    Try and be kind to everyone but fear no one. - Ourea


  8. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Vancouver Island
    Posts
    1,576

    Re: Mule deer study in the Okanagan

    I'm no expert but this seems like a fawn survival problem to me. If the buck to doe ratios are where they should be and the does are all pregnant and some with twins what else makes sense? For a population to increase you need more does of breeding age. For a population to decrease and to decrease rapidly you need a declining and ageing(barren) doe population. If that's happening in conjunction with poor fawn survival, populations will drop fast no matter how many bucks you save.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    3,898

    Re: Mule deer study in the Okanagan

    Quote Originally Posted by Keta1969 View Post
    I'm no expert but this seems like a fawn survival problem to me. If the buck to doe ratios are where they should be and the does are all pregnant and some with twins what else makes sense? For a population to increase you need more does of breeding age. For a population to decrease and to decrease rapidly you need a declining and ageing(barren) doe population. If that's happening in conjunction with poor fawn survival, populations will drop fast no matter how many bucks you save.
    100% correct.


    I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards and forums. - F L Wright


    Try and be kind to everyone but fear no one. - Ourea


  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    The Okanagan Valley
    Posts
    1,655

    Re: Mule deer study in the Okanagan

    The way the mule deer disappeared goes, in my opinion, far beyond predation. Something had decimated the mule deer population and we had better find out what pretty soon. Had a discussion with a forester and we talked about the economic value of our forest and how logging can enhance habitat but I pointed out the poor buggers need a place to hide. As pointed out subdivisions on lower elevations above the valley bottoms are really impacting their winter ranges. My wife is sick of me commenting at every advertisement for residential subdivisions with spectacular views of the valley.

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