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Thread: Good start to winter for ungulates..?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
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    British Columbia, Canada
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    Good start to winter for ungulates..?

    High snow levels.
    Green in the valleys
    Depressed ungulates numbers.
    Good growing season through spring summer.

    Hopefully we see some top level survival rates.

    I'm new to hunting so am I too optimistic? Can we expect a population bounce back with the warmer start to winter down here in the koots?

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  3. #2
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    Re: Good start to winter for ungulates..?

    Depends who you talk to, few different theories on the subject. One is milder winters can increase predation as it's easier for them to hunt, not battling through snow. Cold winters with good snow accumulation and wolves don't do so well wading through snow above their head.
    I can see the milder start thus far a plus, ground is not yet frozen in my area with plenty of grub around still. Worst case scenario is a big snow dump followed by Pineapple Express finished with cold snap. Dogs do well on frozen snow...
    The only advantage to a light rifle is it's weight, all other advantages go to the heavier rifle..

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    Re: Good start to winter for ungulates..?

    From what I recall over the years, winter and winter survival/or deaths seem to occur:

    When the game has not moved down to their normal winter range, and the snow suddenly comes down quick and hard for extended times.
    If the snow falls little by little accumulating slowly over days, the game seem to get that as the cue to move down.
    The worst season were the ones where we have freezing rain etc first, thus putting a sheet of ice down on top of the feed, then followed by lots of snow.

    Being down in the LM, I never get to see what occurs in other parts of the province.
    I hunted Kammy a few times in the past month, and snow levels are really low.
    (Way lower then how it used to be).
    But its areas that have high mountain ranges, like say in Princeton, or the Kettle Valley, or the EK, where game can often get trapped overnight, and where I do recall some big "die offs" over the years.

    Hoping it will be an good winter as I don't think we need that problem on top of all the other issues right now.

  5. #4
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    Re: Good start to winter for ungulates..?

    Quote Originally Posted by .264winmag View Post
    Depends who you talk to, few different theories on the subject. One is milder winters can increase predation as it's easier for them to hunt, not battling through snow. Cold winters with good snow accumulation and wolves don't do so well wading through snow above their head.
    I can see the milder start thus far a plus, ground is not yet frozen in my area with plenty of grub around still. Worst case scenario is a big snow dump followed by Pineapple Express finished with cold snap. Dogs do well on frozen snow...
    I think in areas where the temp can change daily, say -10 one day then +1 a couple days later allows for the snow to warm up, and then becomes "compacted" (instead of staying fluffy, it gets pushed down from its own weight) is always
    an area where wolves succeed in.
    Not sure if there are many areas where the snow stays fluffy all winter long.
    I guess what I am saying is, I doubt there is an area where wolves can operate in.
    The higher the snow, the better they do, imo, cause eventually the surface of the snow does get a crust.
    Something they can walk on top of while the ungulates fall thru.

  6. #5
    Pemby_mess Guest

    Re: Good start to winter for ungulates..?

    Quote Originally Posted by .264winmag View Post
    Depends who you talk to, few different theories on the subject. One is milder winters can increase predation as it's easier for them to hunt, not battling through snow. Cold winters with good snow accumulation and wolves don't do so well wading through snow above their head.
    I can see the milder start thus far a plus, ground is not yet frozen in my area with plenty of grub around still. Worst case scenario is a big snow dump followed by Pineapple Express finished with cold snap. Dogs do well on frozen snow...
    long periods of "breakable crust" are lethal to ungulate populations. Wolves can walk and run across the surface like tarmac, while deer and such break through, get tripped up and bogged down like its quicksand. Rare are conditions like these present at all elevations, on all cardinal aspects, in all regions. Lots of melt freeze will do it though.

    in the winter of 2014-2015, we had quite a bit of "pineapple". But the rain penetrated deeply causing the snowpack to remain completely "locked up"; meaning both wolves and ungulate could ride on top. Large temperature swings from high to low are what would effect the snowpack most negatively where it concerns ungulate survival.

  7. #6
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    Re: Good start to winter for ungulates..?

    Sounds plausible B but I haven't seen any hard info correlating weather events and deer pops, I doubt these things are monitored.
    With the large die-off of '96 folks were reporting finding groups of dead deer iirc, haven't heard of such a thing again.

    This last winter had snow pack at 150% of normal in many parts of BC, anyone hear word about findings of an inordinate number of dead?
    Never say whoa in the middle of a mud hole

  8. #7
    Pemby_mess Guest

    Re: Good start to winter for ungulates..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    I think in areas where the temp can change daily, say -10 one day then +1 a couple days later allows for the snow to warm up, and then becomes "compacted" (instead of staying fluffy, it gets pushed down from its own weight) is always
    an area where wolves succeed in.
    Not sure if there are many areas where the snow stays fluffy all winter long.
    I guess what I am saying is, I doubt there is an area where wolves can operate in.
    The higher the snow, the better they do, imo, cause eventually the surface of the snow does get a crust.
    Something they can walk on top of while the ungulates fall thru.
    constant temps slightly below zero are what create consolidation in the snow pack or "settlement". That is probably a neutral condition for ungulates.

    Rapid settlement will occur with air temps slightly above zero, compacting the snow enough for both species to stay on top.

    Sustained low temps, with clear open skies is negative for settlement. What happens here is the snow within the underlying layers goes through a crystal metamorphosis called "faceting". It turns to "sugar".

    In a heavily faceted snow pack, wolves can run on top, but ungulates will get tripped up around obstacles like sapling trees and rocks that have advanced the faceting process around them.

    Crusts within the snowpack will also create facets (sugary weak snow crystals) on either side of it. If the crust is fully supportive because of a good settlement process, the deer will survive. If the crust has been exposed to cold temps, it will partially break down, and give the wolves an advantage lethal to ungulates.

  9. #8
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    Re: Good start to winter for ungulates..?

    An interesting question, I think Moose do well with lots of snow because they can escape preds better, but deer on the other hand I have noticed will stay up high in surprisingly deep snow if it gets hard and crunchy down below, which they hate because it leaves them raw around their legs causing an issue for them.
    It could be a combination of extreme cold and deep snow that is the worst scenario for deer. I would really like to know more about this.

  10. #9
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    Re: Good start to winter for ungulates..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    I think in areas where the temp can change daily, say -10 one day then +1 a couple days later allows for the snow to warm up, and then becomes "compacted" (instead of staying fluffy, it gets pushed down from its own weight) is always
    an area where wolves succeed in.
    Not sure if there are many areas where the snow stays fluffy all winter long.
    I guess what I am saying is, I doubt there is an area where wolves can operate in.
    The higher the snow, the better they do, imo, cause eventually the surface of the snow does get a crust.
    Something they can walk on top of while the ungulates fall thru.
    I assume you mean 'I doubt there is an area where wolves CAN'T operate in'?
    I hear what you're saying, but also spent a pile of time around the monashees, selkirk and purcells back in my backcountry snowboarding days. Can't remember many instances I could operate without snowshoes, meaning a canine would likely have the same issue. All my buddies that still have the powder bug now rock touring skis or split boards, similar experiences snow wise.

    Another good example would be my favourite Stone Sheep area. Talked to a fellow involved in a 5 year sheep study in that area. They found winter predation was much less on the higher snowfall winters. The sheep concentrate the northern wind swept grass slopes, snow accumulation from valley bottom up prevents dogs from reaching them. Little bit different scenario but it makes some sense.

    I know any area in then Selkirks where the moose thrive up high in 10ft+ snow pack. They live on alder bark all
    winter safe from the dogs. I was shocked when I stumbled on them years ago snowshoeing around slide paths with a spring Grizz tag.

    I know one would think that as the temp warms up and snow levels settle it would be a cakewalk for dogs. I find unless it actually rains then freezes right after it's not so much the case. Heavy settled snow can actually dry out quite easily following a cold snap, without that detrimental crust forming.

    Many variables, hard to say for certain.
    The only advantage to a light rifle is it's weight, all other advantages go to the heavier rifle..

  11. #10
    Pemby_mess Guest

    Re: Good start to winter for ungulates..?

    Quote Originally Posted by boxhitch View Post
    Sounds plausible B but I haven't seen any hard info correlating weather events and deer pops, I doubt these things are monitored.
    With the large die-off of '96 folks were reporting finding groups of dead deer iirc, haven't heard of such a thing again.

    This last winter had snow pack at 150% of normal in many parts of BC, anyone hear word about findings of an inordinate number of dead?
    Quote Originally Posted by 338win mag View Post
    . I would really like to know more about this.
    There is a surprising amount of snow science available. I'm not sure how much wildlife bios use in forecasting mortality, but the two disciplines that I know do a lot of work with snowpack variables are hydrologists and avalanche forecasters. From the science available in those fields, we can then make inferences from the data and transfer them over to knowledge about how wildlife interact with those variables. It wouldn't surprise me at all if wildlife bios were using those same inferences.

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